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Given By
U. S. SUPT. OF DOCUMENTS
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT HELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGKESS
SECOND SESSION PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTIONS 74 AND 221, 85TH CONGRESS
SEPTEMBER 2, 3, 4, 9, AND 10, 1958
PART 39
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTIONS 74 AND 221, 85TH CONGRESS
SEPTEMBER 2, 3, 4, 9, AND 10, 1958
PART 39
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1959
Boston Public Library- Superintendent of Documents
FEB 16 1959 DEPOSITORY
SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas, Chairman IRVING M. IVES, New York, Vice Chairman JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
SAM J. ERVIN. Jr., North Carolina BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona
FRANK CHURCH, Idaho CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
Robert F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel Ruth Youno Watt, Chief Clerk
CONTENTS
James R. Hoffa and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen, and Helpers of America
Page
Appendix 14895
Testimony of —
Bellino, Carmine S 14823
Bryant, Frank 14879
Eickmeyer, Thomas 14601, 14637
Fitzgerald, George S 14729, 14762, 14811, 14854
Gibbons, Harold J 14555, 14607, 14639, 14649
Hannan, James P 14864
Henson, Walter H 14703
Reniker, Amos E 14783
Rogers, John E 14763, 14767
Salinger, Pierre E. G 14891
Schultz, William J 14711
Tiernev, Paul J 14766
Walters, Virgil L 14803
Wainwright, Branch 14779
Webb, Floyd C 14805
EXHIBITS
105A. Teamsters Local 688 strike voucher dated December 8, Introduced Appears 1953, "Strike, Yellow Cab, gas, oil, and cruising patrol," on page on page in the amount of $15 14576 14895
105B. Teamsters Local 688 strike expenditure dated December 14, 1953, "Strike, Yellow Cab, expenses, 5 men cruising," in the amount of $125 14576 14895
105C. Teamsters Local 688 strike expenditure dated December 14, 1953, "Strike, Yellow Cab, lost time patrol duty," in the amount of $125 14576 14896
106A. Statement from Ace Cab Co. to Teamsters Local 405 for
taxicab service in the amount of $2,925 14602 14897
106B. Check No. 2626 dated August 23, 1956, payable to Ace Cab Co. in the amount of $2,925, drawn by Taxicab Drivers Local Union No. 405 14602 14898
107. Police record of the 13 men taking part in the wildcat strike
August 1956 for the hoodlum squad, St. Louis Police Department 14602 (*)
108. Document from Rosenblum, Goldenhersh & Merle L.
Silverstein: Memorandum — Grand Jury Testimony 14618 (*)
109. Document sealed at the direction of the chairman and in
the custody of the committee 14636 (**)
110. Bills from Joseph Cutter for bail bonds purchased by the
Teamsters in St. Louis 14638 (*)
111. Brief for Louis Berra, petitioner, in the Supreme Court of
the United States, October term 1955, No. 60, filed by Stanley M. Rosenblum and Mark M. Hennelly, counsel for petitioner 14640 (*)
112. Document sealed at the direction of the chairman and in
the custody of the committee 14651 (**)
*May be fo'ind in the files of the select committee. **Is filed with the select committee.
ni
IV CONTENTS
113. Check No. 2691 dated August 12, 1955, payable to Ducker
& Seldman in the amount of $3,000, drawn, by Central IntroducecTAppears States Conference of Teamsters and signed by James R. on page on page Hoffa and H. J. Gibbons 14686 14899
114. Check No. 2696 dated August 15, 1955, payable to Samuel
Seldman in the amount of $3,000, drawn by Central States Conference of Teamsters and signed by James R. Hoffa and H. J. Gibbons 14687 14900
115. Check No. 4139 dated August 15, 1956, payable to Team-
sters Local Union No. 247 in the amount of $1,000, drawn by Central Conference of Teamsters and signed by James R. Hoffa and H. J. Gibbons 14693 14901
116. Ten checks, Nos. 1602 through 1611, all dated June 14,
1954, and each in the amount of $700, payable to Pete Saffo, drawn by Central States Conference of Teamsters and signed by James R. Hoffa and H. J. Gibbons 14696 (*)
117. Check No. 1633 dated June 29, 1954, payable to Richard
Kavner in the amount of $10,000, drawn by Central States Conference of Teamsters and signed by James R. Hoffa and H. J. Gibbons 14697 14902
118. Eight checks of different amounts and dates in 1956 which
total $19,500, payable to William Carl Schneider, drawn by Central Conference of Teamsters and signed by James R. Hoffa and H. J. Gibbons 14699 (*)
119. Cash receipt book maintained in St. Louis and compilation
in alphabetical order of cash receipts, James Hoffa dinner
committee 14701 (*)
120. Minutes of a trustee meeting dated October 1, 1955 14706 (*)
121. Escrow agreement dated October 12, 1955, between Win-
chester Village Land Co. and Michigan Conference of
Teamsters Welfare Fund of the City of Detroit 14711 (*)
122. Letter dated November 11, 1955 addressed to Abstract &
Title Guaranty Co. Re: Escrow agreement governing the disbursement of the proceeds of Mortgage Loan on
Winchester Village, signed by George S. Fitzgerald 14713 14903
122 A. Letter dated December 9, 195*5, addressed to Abstract & Title Guaranty Co., re Winchester Village Land Co., signed by George S. Fitzgerald__ 14713 14904
123. Letter dated March 19, 1956, addressed to Jack I. Winshall
and signed by Norman J. Monnig 14722 14905
124. Document "Offer to Purchase Real Estate" Northerly 10
acres of the Northeast % Section 3, T6N, R5E. Gaines
Township, Genesee County, Mich 14722 (*)
125. Statement to Winchester Village Land Co. on the letter-
head of Aero Realty, dated June 29, 1956, services rendered through May 3, 1956, in the amount of $51,020.83 14723 14906
126. Check No. 99 dated July 5, 1956, payable to Aero Realty
in the amount of $51,020.83, drawn by the Abstract &
Title Guaranty Co., escrow fund 14724 14907
126A. Check stub from Aero Realty records recording a deposit of $51,020.83 and the issuance of a check for the same amount, payable to A. S. Green for "exchange of checks" 14726 14908
127A. Check dated July 5, 1956, payable to Manufacturers National Bank "for cashier's check to A. S. Green" in the amount of $51,020.83 14726 14909
127B. Cashier's check No. S320333 dated July 5, 1956, payable
to A. S. Green in the amount of $51,020.83 14726 14910
128A. Cashier's check No. C107974 dated July 6, 1956, payable to Lamiel Le Vine doing business as F. & L. D. Co. in the amount of $25,010.42 14726 14911
128B. Cashier's check No. C 107973 dated July 6, 1956, payable to Blanche Pearl and William Pearl in the amount of $6,252.61 14726 14712
128C. Cashier's check No. C107972 dated Julv 6, 1956, payable
to Jerome Kirschbaum in the amount of $6,252.60 14726 14913
•May be found In the files of the select committee.
CONTENTS V
Introduced Appears 128D. Cashier's check No. C107971 dated July 6, 1956, payable on page on page
to Harold N. Rosemont in the amount of $6,252.60 14726 14914
128E. Cashier's check No. C 107970 dated July 6, 1956, payable
to Ira E. Falk and Bell R. Falk in the amount of
$6,252.60 14726 14915
128F. Cashier's check No. C107979 dated July 6, 1956, payable
to A. S. Green in the amount of $1,000 14726 14916
129. Letter dated August 17, 1956, addressed to Manny Harris,
Detroit, Mich., and signed "North American Develop- ment Co., by Jack I. Winshall" 14727 14917
130. Affidavit of Lawrence L. Cook as to appraisal ofWinchester
Village Land Co., together with foreclosure report from
Abstract & Title Guaranty Co 14761 (*)
131. Audit report of the books of local 245 as of February 1950_. 14765 (*)
132. Letter dated September 24, 1954, addressed to Harold
Gibbons from Einar O. Mohn, appointing Mr. Gibbons
trustee of local 245 14767 (*)
133. Criminal record of Branch Wainwright 14769 (*)
134. Criminal record of Carl Cates, together with photographs.. 14778 (*)
135. Letter dated August 11, 1954, addressed to Mr. Amos Reni-
ker, care of local union 823, Joplin, Mo., and signed by James R. Hoffa, together with record of payment of dues in local 823 14791 (*)
136. Letters from James R. Hoffa to various members of local
823, in Joplin, together with lists of people declared elig- ible and ineligible as nominees for office in the local 14791 (*)
137. Minutes of special nomination meeting of local 823, dated
August 1, 1954, conducted by James R. Hoffa 14792 (*)
138. Document of action filed with National Labor Relations
Board by Buxton & Cawthorn charging unfair labor practices on the part of Roadway Express and local union 823 14794 (*)
139. Minutes of regular meeting of local 823, dated May 5,
1957 14803 (*)
140. FBI report on findings of examination of above-mentioned
minutes 14805 (*)
141A. Check No. 7594 dated April 1, 1954, payable to George S. Fitzgerald in the amount of $3,600, drawn by joint coun- cil No. 43, Detroit, Mich 14839 14918
141B. Check No. 1548 dated April 5, 1954, payable to Philip Gillis in the amount of $3,500 and drawn on account of George Fitzgerald and signed by George Fitzgerald.. 14839 14919
142A. Check No. 3507 dated October 23, 1957, payable to "Cash" in the amount of $25,000, drawn by Truck Drivers Local 299 and signed by Frank Collins 14845 14920
142B. Check No. 1704 dated October 23, 1957, payable to "Cash" in the amount of $25,000, drawn by Food and Beverage Drivers Local 337 and signed bv Bert Brennan 14845 14921
143. Check No. 1961 dated August 8, 1956, payable to Benjamin
Dranow in the amount of $5,000 and signed by George
Fitzgerald 14848 14922
144. Check No. 1525 dated February 13, 1954, payable to
Lawrence Burns in the amount of $2,400 and signed by
George Fitzgerald 14851 14923
144A. Check No. 49 dated February 12, 1954, payable to George S. Fitzgerald in the amount of $2,400, drawn by joint council 43, good and welfare fund, and signed by James R. Hoffa 14852 14924
145. Check No. 397 dated January 3, 1955, payable to Joe
Louisell in the amount of $5,000, drawn bv joint council
43, defense fund, and signed bv Frank Collins 14853 14925
146. Check No. 6799 dated February 15, 1955, payable to
Hubbard Associates in the amount of $1,000, drawn by Food and Beverage Drivers Local 337 and signed by
Bert Brennan 14869 14926
*May be found in the files of the select committee.
VI CONTENTS
147. Agreement dated March 14, 1955, for the sale of May bury Introduced Appear Grand property bv the UAW Education Association to 0D page on page local 337 for $36,500 and signed by Bert Brennan 14869 (*)
148A. Check No. 7694 dated July 6, 1955, payable to Hubbard Associates in the amount of $17,247, drawn by Food and Beverage Drivers Local 337 and signed by Bert Brennan. 14869 14927
148B. Check No. 9847 dated July 5, 1955, payable to Hubbard Associates in the amount of $18,247.91, drawn on Truck
Drivers Local 299 and signed by Frank Collins 14869 14928
149. Building agreement between Detroit Teamsters Temple Association, Inc., and the A. N. Hickson, Inc., for work on the Maybury property 14869 14929
150A. Check No. 11030 dated October 25, 1955, payable to James R. Hoffa in the amount of $2,976.30, drawn by Truck Drivers Union 299 and signed by Frank Collins 14870 14930
150B. Check No. 8323 dated October 25, 1955, payable to Bert Brennan in the amount of $2,976.30, drawn on Food and Beverage Drivers Local 337 and signed by Bert Brennan. 14870 14931 151. Check No. 3 dated January 4, 1956, payable to Herbert Grosberg in the amount of $15,000 and signed by Charles Grosberg 14870 14932
152A. Check No. 3710 dated January 9, 1956, payable to James R. Hoffa in the amount of $7,500, drawn by Herbert Grosberg 14871 14933
152B. Check No. 3711 dated January 9, 1956, payable to Owen B. Brennan in the amount of $7,500 and drawn by Herbert Grosberg 14871 14934
153. Appraisal dated January 16, 1956, prepared by Fred E.
Bigelow, addressed to Maybury Grand Medical Building, to the attention of James P. Hannan, secretary-treas- urer, and furnished to Michigan Conference of Teamsters welfare fund trustees in connection with a request for a loan in the amount of $250 14873 (*)
154. Check No. 1753 dated March 16, 1956, payable to A. N.
Hickson, Inc., in the amount of $184,719.84, drawn by
Michigan Conference of Teamsters Welfare Fund 14876 14935
155A. Check No. 7 (voucher No. 53) dated March 27, 1956, pay- able to Teamsters Local 299 in the amount of $20,000, drawn by Maybury Grand Medical, Inc 14877 14936
155B. Check No. 8 (voucher No. 54) dated March 27, 1956, payable to Teamsters Local 337 in the amount of $20,000, drawn by Maybury Grand Medical, Inc 14877 14937
156. Check No. 195 (voucher No. 155) dated July 19, 1956,
payable to Bert Brennan and James R. Hoffa in the amount of $15,000, drawn by Maybury Grand Medical, Inc . .. 14877 14938
157. Check No. 242 (voucher No. 305) dated August 17, 1956,
payable to Bert Brennan and James R. Hoffa in the amount of $16,000 and drawn by Maybury Grand Medical, Inc 14877 14939
158. Check No. 11 (voucher No. 52) dated January 27, 1957,
payable to Charles Hannan, architect, in the amount of
$1,027, drawn by Maybury Grand Medic? 1, Inc 14877 14940
159. Certificate of election of officers for local 614 dated May 17,
1958, at the time the ballots were counted 14887 (*)
160. Letter dated April 28, 1958, addressed to Raleigh Fetherlyn
and signed by Robert Holmes, vice president, joint
council No. 43 14888 (*)
Proceedings of —
September 2, 1958 14555
September 3, 1958 14607
September 4, 1958 14703
September 9, 1958 14729
September 10, 1958 14811
•May be found in the files of the select committee.
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 1958
United States Senate, Select Committee on Improper Activities
in the Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. G.
The select committee met at 2 p. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution 221, agreed to January 29, 1958, in the caucus room, Senate Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com- mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler- man, assistant chief counsel; Paul Tierney, assistant counsel; John J. McGovern, assistant counsel; Carmine S. Bellino, accountant; Pierre E. Salinger, investigator; Leo C. Nulty, investigator; James P. Kelly, investigator ; Walter J. Sheridan, investigator ; James Mun- die, investigator, Treasury Department ; John Flanagan, investigator, GAO ; Alfred Vitarelli, investigator, GAO ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
(At the reconvening of the committee, the following members are present : Senators McClellan and Ives.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The first wit- ness is Mr. Gibbons?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons, be sworn, please, sir. You do solemn- ly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate select commit- tee shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gibbons. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD J. GIBBONS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, DAVID PREVIANT AND STANLEY ROSENBLUM
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Gibbons. My name is Harold J. Gibbons. The address is 508 Altus Place, Kirkwood, Mo. The business is union representative.
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons, you have counsel present ?
Mr. Gibbons. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Counsel, identify yourself, please.
Mr. Previant. My name is David Previant. I am a member of the Wisconsin Bar. My office is located in Milwaukee, Wis. Associated
14555
14556 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
with me, if the chairman please, is Stanley Rosenblum, an attorney from St. Louis. With the chairman's leave, there is another gentle- man here with Mr. Rosenblum, who is a member of Mr. Gibbons' staff, and who is familiar with the various documents we have with us. May he sit next to Mr. Rosenblum during the period of the ques- tioning?
The Chairman. He may. Identify him, please.
Mr. Previant. Charles P. Chuckray. He is an accountant.
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons, will you elaborate upon your present position as representative of organized labor by stating the various positions you now hold ?
Mr. Gibbons. Could I get some relief from the cameras so I can bet- ter concentrate on questions, Senator, if you don't mind ?
The Chairman. You may. The cameras here?
Mr. Gibbons. These here in front of me.
The Chairman. All right. Respect the orders of the Chair.
Give us, I think, right in the beginning, the various official posi- tions you hold with the union.
Mr. Gibbons. I am an international vice president of the Interna- tional Brotherhood of Teamsters. I am the executive assistant to the general president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. I am the secretary-treasurer of the Central Conference of Teamsters. I am the national director of the warehouse division of the Interna- tional Brotherhood of Teamsters. I am the president of the Missouri- Kansas Conference of Teamsters.
The Chairman. Missouri-Kansas
Mr. Gibbons. Conference of Teamsters. I am the trustee and presi- dent of the St. Louis Joint Council, No. 13, of the International Broth- erhood of Teamsters. I am the secretary-treasurer of local union 688 of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.
The Chairman. Local 688 ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. I am president of the Labor Health Institute, a corporation. And I am president of the Unity Welfare Association.
The Chairman. Unity Welfare ?
Mr. Gibbons. A pro forma corporation also. Unity Welfare Asso- ciation.
I have some other capacities of a more minor nature. I don't think they would constitute jobs. Such as I am a trustee representing the union on a trust fund in St. Louis. I am the secretary of the commit- tee, the joint committee, between the Butcher Workmen's Union and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.
The Chairman. What is that last one ?
Mr. Gibbons. I am secretary of the joint committee of the Inter- national Brotherhood of Teamsters and the — I don't know the exact title of the other union, but it is the Butchers' Union, the National Butchers Union. I am also secretary of the joint committee of the International .Brotherhood of Teamsters and the Upholsters Inter- national Union.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Gibbons. And from time to time I may serve in other capacities on a temporary basis.
The Chairman. Are you also trustee of a number of locals?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14557
The Chairman. Will you identify the locals ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. Currently I am the trustee of local 405, in the city of St. Louis. I am the trustee of, I believe the number is 833, in Jefferson City, Mo., I am the trustee of one local union still in trustee in Kansas City.
The Chairman. Do you remember the number of it ?
Mr. Kennedy. Local 955 ?
Mr. Gibbons. 955, 1 believe it is.
The Chairman. That is Kansas City ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, Missouri.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Gibbons. And I believe that is all. I mentioned the fact I was trustee and president of the joint council.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gibbons. I believe that is all, unless you can bring something else to my attention.
The Chairman. Senator Ives ?
Senator Ives. I would like to ask Mr. Gibbons a question.
Have you a college degree ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, sir.
Senator Ives. Did you ever attend college ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. How far did you get ?
Mr. Gibbons. I think I finished 1 year at the University of Chicago. I have spent a couple of summers at the University of Chicago. I spent 1 summer at Wisconsin.
Senator Ives. What were you specializing in ?
Mr. Gibbons. During the summers I was taking courses in teaching techniques, teachers' education, and in the 1 year that I spent at the university I just took the regular freshman's course. Actually, I didn't even have the qualifications for entry, but through the good offices of Paul Douglas, one of your associates, he managed to get me in there on the basis of my background, experience, and previous readings.
Senator Ives. What were you aiming to be when you got through, a teacher, a professor ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. At that time I suspect teaching was my great interest.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons, can you give us the approximate membership of these three separate locals that you are trustee of?
Mr. Gibbons. If I can stick to approximates, all right, Senator.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gibbons. In the cab local in St. Louis, I think you will find approximately 1,200 members. In the one over in Kansas City, you will probably find 1,800 to 2,000 members.
The Chairman. And Jefferson City ?
Mr. Gibbons. In Jefferson City you will probably find less than 1,000 members.
The Chairman. What is the membership of local 688 ?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, that fluctuates. It has been as high as 11,000. In the last few years it has probably dropped to approximately 9,000. But it has at one point reached as high as 11,000. It is about the
14558 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
fourth or fifth biggest local in the international. It is always re- ferred to as a local of 10,000 members, but I think it would be closer to nine at this date.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions at this point?
All right, Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What about local 21 ?
Mr. Gibbons. I think if my memory serves me right that has been taken out of trusteeship, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Hannibal, Mo. ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And local 245, in Springfield, Mo. ?
Mr. Gibbons. 245? Is Mr. Hoffa or myself trustee of that? I could very well be the trustee of that. In fact, I am certain I am. It is one that I missed.
The Chairman. What was the number ?
Mr. Kennedy. 245, Springfield.
Mr. Gibbons. Incidentally, it is in the process, as you know, of coming out of trusteeship, and at the moment a stop order was put out by the monitors. It would have been out by now.
Mr. Kennedy. 245 is Springfield, Mo. How many members does that have, approximately?
Mr. Gibbons. 1,500 to 1,800, 1 would think.
Mr. Kennedy. When did local 21 come out, do you know ?
Mr. Gibbons. No; I would have to check the records at the inter- national office.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you also the designee of other locals that are under trusteeship, such as the situation in 447 ?
Mr. Gibbons. I believe that is the only one where I take an active part in administering its affairs.
Mr. Kennedy. Just 447 ?
Mr. Gibbons. I believe that is the only one where you would find such a designation.
The Chairman. Is that in trusteeship ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; that is in trusteeship, but under President Hoffa.
The Chairman. But you are active ?
Mr. Gibbons. I am more or less his agent in administering the affairs of that local, Senator.
The Chairman. What is that local ?
Mr. Kennedy. Local 447. That is the Carnival and Allied Workers of the United States of America.
The Chairman. Where is it located ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is the one in question.
The Chairman. What is the approximate membership of that, Mr. Gibbons?
Mr. Gibbons. I would say it averages out to about 900 members. Maybe that is a little high, even, but no more than 900 members.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you give us a little of your background, Mr. Gibbons? Where were you born? Where were you educated?
Mr. Gibbons. I was born in Taylorborough, Pa. I was educated in the schools of Taylorborough. I went to night school in Scranton, Pa. I went to night school in Chicago, 111.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is that?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14559
Mr. Gibbons. Chicago, 111.
Mr. Kennedy. You were 1 of 23 children, is that right ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. I was the youngest of 23.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you leave Pennsylvania, and how old were you ?
Mr. Gibbons. I left Pennsylvania in 1929. I left Taylorborough after 1 year in high school after finishing my freshman year in high school. That ended my formal education as such for a long period. I went to Scranton, Pa., where I lived until 1929. I continuously went to night school. I took courses in the high school of Scranton, Pa.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you working there at all ?
Mr. Gibbons. I did restaurant work, with the exception of a short period when I was doing common laborer's work on a construction project. I went to Chicago in 1929 and again took up construction work, common labor.
Mr. Kennedy. You were born in 1910 ?
Mr. Gibbons. 1910. In 1931, approximately, I got a job in a warehouse in Chicago, and I worked there until some time in 1932 when the depression was at its height and was laid off. I was un- employed. I went to Wisconsin for the summer for a 6-week course there on a scholarship arrangement, and returned to St. Louis un- employed and worked on various Government projects of the WPA and the educational setup. I did some teaching in that period for the next few years.
Mr. Kennedy. When would that be?
Mr. Gibbons. I would say in 1933 and 1934. I did teaching first, and later was on a textbook writing project. I was one of the writers writing textbooks.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the textbooks on ?
Mr. Gibbons. Generally the field of economics, on things like unemployment.
Mr. Kennedy. Under whose name were they published ?
Mr. Gibbons. They were published under the — I forget the initials of the agency which published them — but it was a Federal educational project.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you the only author ?
Mr. Gibbons. No; there were a series, about a half dozen, who were writing. It was under a fellow who you happen to know, Milt Disney, who headed that project,
Mr. Kennedy. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. Gibbons. I guess it was in those days.
Mr. Kennedy. Early 1930's?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, probably later than that, 1933 and 1934.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us then what you did ?
Mr. Gibbons. I was active then in the American Federation of Teachers. I became an international and national vice president of the American Federation of Teachers. I spent about 3 months organizing for them around the eastern part of the country. I guess that brings me up to 1935 or 1936. I was active in the teachers union. I think in the spring of 1937 I put out a strike bulletin for the taxi- cab workers strike in the city of Chicago. It ran 22 days. After that at Frank Rosenblum's request, of the Amalgamated Clothing
14560 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Workers Union, I went over and worked generally as his assistant. He was CIO director of the city of Chicago.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question there ?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. Mr. Gibbons, did you say you have taught?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, on Goverment projects.
Senator Ives. Just in what kind of a project were you teaching?
Mr. Gibbons. We had educational classes.
Senator Ives. Who were in your class ?
Mr. Gibbons. For instance, I had one of the classes that I taught in a building in Chicago, it was a group of businessmen who wanted to learn public speaking.
Senator Ives. You taught public speaking ?
Mr. Gibbons. I taught public speaking.
Senator Ives. Where did you get your instruction in public speaking ?
Mr. Gibbons. I studied textbooks on it, Senator, and sort of just picked it up.
Senator Ives. I imagine you are a pretty good speaker, but I won- der if you had any formal instruction in it.
Mr. Gibbons. No; I had no formal instruction. I had teacher's training, techniques of teaching, things that you should watch out for, things that you should avoid, the approaches you might make, and that sort of things.
Senator Ives. Who appointed you to this position of instructor in these courses ?
Mr. Gibbons. I would not know the individual names of the people now. It was in this period of 1932-33 when the WPA educational classes with recruiting staff and conducting sessions.
Senator Ives. In other words, there is no particular requirement that must be met by those doing the instructing?
Mr. Gibbons. I would assume that they had to have some element of competence. Otherwise, they were not going to put you in front of a bunch of businessmen and expect them to hang around very long. There was no formal educational requirement in that sense. I did not have those.
Senator Ives. Just what businessmen did you have, may I ask, who were trying to learn public speaking from you, who had never had any experience in public speaking.
Mr. Gibbons. They did not particularly ask for Mr. Gibbons. They requested from the WPA a teacher to be assigned to their group. They formed their own group. They requested a teacher. I was assigned to that particular group by whoever was in charge at that moment of the operation.
Senator Ives. You mean that you, who never had any experience or training in that field of public speaking, were assigned to teach public speaking ; is that correct ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know whether you can say that I did not have any experience. I did not have any training. I had training in teaching, No. 1.
Senator Ives. Just a minute. Let us start on that. What train- ing had you had in teaching ?
Mr. Gibbons. I spent two summers at the University of Chicago.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14561
Senator Ives. Teaching what ?
Mr. Gibbons. Not teaching; learning.
Senator Ives. You said you had experience in teaching, though, before you started teaching public speaking.
Mr. Gibbons. No; I had experience in public speaking, No. 1.
Senator Ives. What kind of experience, making speeches yourself ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Senator Ives. That is all you ever had in that field ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Senator Ives. You never had a textbook ?
Mr. Gibbons. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I studied textbooks.
Senator Ives. What textbook did you study ?
Mr. Gibbons. As of right now, Senator, this is a couple of years ago, and I am hardly in a position to name the particular textbooks which we looked at and studied. It has been a long time since I did any teaching in public speaking.
Senator Ives. How many years ago did you say that was ?
Mr. Gibbons. 1933 or 1934.
Senator Ives. 25 years. I can understand how you would forget the authors by this time.
Mr. Gibbons. Or even the name of the book.
Senator Ives. The reason I am inquiring in that particular field
Mr. Gibbons. This is all a matter of public record. One of your colleagues in the Senate, Senator Douglas, was aware. Lillian Herstein, who was active in that project who taught me, she was one of the instructors at the University of Chicago when I was a student.
Senator Ives. She taught you how to teach ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. She was one of the instructors at the school where I received my teachers training at the University of Chicago.
Senator Ives. How long did you teach ?
Mr. Gibbons. I suspect I taught from maybe 3 years — 1933-36 or 1935.
Senator Ives. That was the end of your teaching ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is all.
Senator Ives. Then you became an organizer of the Teachers Union.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes; the American Federation of Teachers.
Senator Ives. The American Federation of Teachers ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is a teachers union.
Senator Ives. Wait a minute. The Teachers Union in New York City is a little bit different.
Mr. Gibbons. I am aware of the situation on the Guild.
Senator Ives. You better not get into that.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; I am talking now about the American Federa- tion of Teachers.
Senator Ives. And you never had but 3 years experience in teaching, and yet you became an organizer for the Teachers Union or American Federation of Teachers ?
Mr. Gibbons. I was well steeped in the philosophy of the labor movement at that time and this was the big thing that one had to know to be an effective organizer.
Senator Ives. Where did you learn the philosophy of the labor movement ? Chicago ?
14562 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. No ; I got most of it at a combination of the Univer- sity of Wisconsin
Senator Ives. Did you go to a school for workers at the University of Wisconsin ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Senator Ives. Who was your instructor ?
Mr. Gibbons. Ernest Schwartzkreiber was the director, a very fine person.
Senator Ives. Yes ; he is.
Mr. Gibbons. A woman whose name escapes me at the moment was also there. After the experience at the university, I did extensive reading in the field of economics and labor.
Senator Ives. Would you say, knowing your colleagues in the labor movement as you undoubtedly do, that you are the best informed in the labor movement itself ?
Mr. Gibbons. No; I would not. Far from me to say anything of that nature because you don't get all of your knowledge in the labor movement out of books. You get it from real experience.
Senator Ives. I understand that. I have studied the labor move- ment for a number of years.
Mr. Gibbons. There are a lot of scholars in the labor movement that are occupying active positions.
Senator Ives. I know there are. I want to get your background because of what may be developed where you are concerned and I am wondering how it happened. Go ahead. I am through. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you go on from 1934 to 1935 ?
Mr. Gibbons. I got in the taxicab strike in 1937. In 1935 and 1936 I was either teaching, because I went organizing for the American Federation of Teachers, I quit whatever I was doing and worked for a period of some 3 months, traveling the eastern part of the United States, winding up at a statewide meeting at Indianapolis of teachers.
Mr. Kennedy. When were you involved in the taxicab strike ?
Mr. Gibbons. This was, I think, in the spring of 1937 in Chicago.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Teamsters.
Mr. Gibbons. That is right. I first edited the strike bulletin. Then when Doug Anderson went to Minneapolis to work with the Textile — he was the organizer — I took over as the organizer of that situation.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Joey Glinko involved in that?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe so. It doesn't ring a bell, and I don't recall having met him in those days.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. Gibbons. I would not be able to tell you, but it is a relatively recent date.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't work with him during the 1930's?
Mr. Gibbons. No, I don't recall knowing of him being involved in that particular strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead, please.
Mr. Gibbons. I went over and worked with Frank Rosenblum at the Amalgamated Clothing Workers until 1938 when we had a reces- sion and we had to cut staff in the Chicago area. I went out to act as a subregional director for the Textile Workers Organizing Com- mittee in those days, I believe, at Louisville, Ky. That was in 1938.
IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14563
I stayed there in 1938 and 1940. In 1940 I extended my opera- tions into Kansas and St. Louis for the Textile Workers. Then in 1941, around June of 1941, I accepted an offer of the United Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Workers Union to become their St. Louis director. I worked as director in St. Louis of the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Employees Union, CIO, until the end of 1947.
Toward the end of 1947, 1 believe it was, and then in an intraunion dispute the St. Louis organization withdrew from the Retail, Whole- sale, and for 1 year we were independent. I think that was mostly for the year 1948 and the beginning of 1949 we affiliated with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. In that period from 1949 to the present time I have been the chief administrative officer in local 688.
(At this point, the following members were present: Senators Mc- Clellan and Ives.)
Mr. Kennedy. What was the date that you were president of the United — what was the union in 1948 ?
Mr. Gibbons. When it was independent ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Gibbons. United Distribution Workers Union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did that have a local number ?
Mr. Gibbons. No local number. It was independent.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you independent at the time ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. Until we merged with local 688 of the Team- sters.
Mr. Kennedy. We have had testimony regarding the payments of some $78,000 to Mr. Camie, Mr. Church, and Mr. Karsh.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. It appears that your merger amounted to what would appear to be, at least, a sale or purchase of the union by you. Would you like to make some comment on that?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, I would say to you that there was no aspect of a sale or purchase involved in the merger of 688 and the United Dis- tribution Workers. The merger — the initial talks took place in the city of Chicago, with Mr. Beck. We spent many an hour going over the constitution of the international union, and the constitution and operations of the United Distribution Workers, to see whether or not we were eligible to come and to function under his constitution and what changes would be necessary. That is No. 1. No. 2, we had some problems which we were concerned about whether or not we could live with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. We did not know the Teamsters at that time. We were concerned, for in- stance, because we had a very strong position on the matter of no discrimination. And we were concerned about that. We were as- sured by Mr. Beck that there was no problem in terms of living under the international union.
The whole thing was worked on by Beck and some of his associates, myself, and then we adjourned the meetings and when we brought in Larry Camie in Chicago, then we were asked, when the basic, over- all considerations were in order, we were asked to go ahead down to St. Louis and effect the merger.
14564 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
We got into St. Louis and arrangements were made that the execu- tive board of local 688 should resign, and I also should appoint the— or we appoint the new executive board of the local union on merger.
Secondly, all of the bank accounts were transferred over to my control. Larry, himself, agreed that he would be out of the picture entirely, he was going to retire from the labor movement, and he was going to become a businessman. It was at that stage — going back before we go any further on the details of the actual merger, on the part of my organization we had had a meeting of some 6,000 members. I can give you the exact date. It was 4,000 members at a citywide mass meeting held at Keihl Auditorium on January 16, 1948. By motion there, unanimously passed, that the officers be given a mandate to seek and arrange for an affiliation with the international union.
We were conscious of the fact that as an independent union we did not have the strength to cope with the national change we had to deal with, and the combination of employers we had to face in the city of St. Louis. Secondly, we were good union men and we wanted to be part of the main stream of the American labor movement. This is part of the background of our seeking it. Incidentally, I met to try to work out affiliations with the Textile Workers and several other unions in the CIO.
Secondly, in our union we have every 23 members having a shop steward, and they function every month in a shop stewards' council. They were authorized to approve any arrangements that we would make. At the time that we completed the arrangements with Camie, in which the executive board, by majority, became United Distribu- tion Worker people, and the finances were turned over to the United Distribution Workers, the merged union, the new officers, I spoke to the entire executive board, the staff, and the office girls.
I recognized that this was a considerable change from their old operation, and in many instances some may feel they could not func- tion or certainly did not want to function under the new setup, and I voluntarily proposed to them that those who were 3 years still to go, who did not want to work under the new setup, could resign with severance pay, and those who wanted to work or felt they could work under the new setup, could continue and have jobs.
It turned out that we took all of the office girls over, we took all of the staff, with the exception of Camie, and we paid the severance pay for the balance of the term for the members of the executive board, the rank and file members of the executive board.
Immediately upon completing this, including the payment of sever- ance pay, I reported it back to a meeting of my steering committee, my executive board, and to my stewards' council. My stewards committee has about 40 rank-and-filers on it. My executive board in those days had about 60 rank-and-filers on it.
And my stewards' council had about 250 to 300 rank-and-filers in it.
Every detail that I was authorized to make, every arrangement I was authorized to make, was made known to my entire membership and was approved by the proper and appropriate bodies within our local union.
, I at no point had the feeling, the concept, or the intent of purchasing anything like a local union in this particular respect.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14565
Mr. Kennedy. Of course, they had no contract to receive that money, Mr. Gibbons. They had no legal right to receive the money that you paid to them.
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, you are a lawyer. An election has the same standing in a court as a contract. There are cases decided on this. They actually had a legal right to it.
But that was not the basis on which I gave it to them. I have fought for severance pay for our membership and I have in every one of our contracts and I receive it every time a shop shuts down or moves away.
That is the basis on which I offered it, out of a sense of decency. We don't run a business. We run a movement. We are part of a movement.
Mr. Kennedy. But you could have kept them on the payroll and used their services for another 2 or 3 years.
Mr. Gibbons. We did offer that. But we also knew that our opera- tion was so entirely different from the operation of the old 688 that it may have been an impossibility for those men to be able to function.
As it turned out, one of them, anyway, just could not take it, and said "I don't understand this operation. I want out."
At that point, we paid him.
The Chairman. Which one was that?
Mr. Gibbons. That was Mr. Church.
The Chairman. Where is the provision in your international con- constitution that gives you the authority to pay severance pay for 3 years' time ?
Mr. Gibbons. There is nothing in our international constitution which prohibits it. That is No. 1. At that particular moment I was not necessarily operating under an international constitution when I made that arrangement. As I pointed out to Mr. Kennedy, they had a legal right to it, and I had a strong feeling that I had a moral respon- sibility to give it.
The Chairman. I know you say they had a legal right to it. Is there anything in the provisions of the union, the local, the independent union
Mr. Gibbons. The provisions in the independent union is the will of the membership, Mr. Senator.
The Chairman. You have no constitution or bylaws ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir, we had a constitution and bylaws.
The Chairman. Was there any provision in your constitution or bylaws of the independent local authorizing severance pay for a 3-year period of time ?
Mr. Gibbons. The entire constitution, Senator, is designed to fa- cilitate the expression of the will of the people, and the will of the people in that instance was to grant this severance pay.
It was approved by them.
The Chairman. Must I take the answer to be no, that there was no provision in it ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, I would not testify to the fact that there is no provision in it, because there is more than just the written word in the constitution.
The Chairman. There is more than the written word ?
Mr. Gibbons. In the constitution. There is an intent and a purpose.
21243—59 — pt. 39 2
14566 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. At least there was no specific provision that au- thorized such tremendous amount of severance pay ?
Mr. Gibbons. Certainly not in a constitution would you find any provision including the words $78,000. This is a permanent kind of document. It is not transient. It does not apply for a day. It is a permanent deal for a long time. It was not in there. But, likewise, there is nothing in our constitution which prohibited it, and I was acting in full concert with the provisions of our constitution and by- laws when I made those arrangements.
The Chairman. Do you think there should be some provision in a constitution, either authorizing it and stipulating the amount, or should it remain without authority and leave it to the discretion of the officers at the time ?
Mr. Gibbons. Is that a question, Senator ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gibbons. The answer to it, in my opinion, Senator, is that there should be in every constitution responsibility of officers for each and every one of their acts to report back to their membership and be sub- ject to the approval of that membership each and every act of their conduct. This was in our constitution, and this was exactly what was followed in the case of my paying out $78,000 for the purposes of severance pay in the case of the merger. And this, I think, is the only provision
The Chairman. Do you have a copy of the constitution of that local ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't have one with me, but I am pretty certain if there is one in existence, I will be able to find it. _ It goes back, as you know, now, some 10*years, but I am pretty certain that one would be in existence.
The Chairman. If you have a copy of it, will you file it for the committee's information ?
Mr. Gibbons. I will certainly see that it is here, probably in the next 24 hours.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Air. Kennedy. Who had selected you to head up the combined unions ?
You say you were consulting the membership.
Mr. Gibbons. Initially, for the purpose of the merger, the executive board designated that I should sit as the president. As soon as the combined operations could be integrated, then we had our elections. In those days, I was elected every year.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you get elected ?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, within a year after that, because in those days I was elected each and every year.
Mr. Kennedy. Who decided that you were going to stay on and they were going to leave ?
Mr. Gibbons. In this particular instance, it was agreed by their executive board that they would resign as part of the merger.
Mr. Kennedy. That is reasonably good operation for them because they were going to resign and receive $78,000 and turn the union over to you. If that is not a sale of the union, Mr. Gibbons, I don't know what it is.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14567
Mr. Gibbons. No, the decision to resign did not come after there was any discussion of $78,000, necessarily, Mr. Kennedy. As I recol- lect it, it was no part of any discussion that, in return for $78,000, "We will resign and turn the local over to you."
Mr. Kennedy. There had to be a selection of a leader. You said they decided they would resign and you would head up the operation.
Mr. Gibbons. That is correct, because I headed up the operation which had three times as many members as they had.
Mr. Kennedy. What they did for $78,000 was turn the operation over to you.
Mr. Gibbons. No, they did not for any $78,000 turn anything over. They said, decided and agreed, perfectly logical, that "This man that heads up an organization three times as big as ours is obviously the person who is entitled to become the president of it."
It had nothing to do with any consideration of $78,000.
Mr. Kennedy. I would think that would be up to the membership to make that decision, Mr. Gibbons, not the executive board that is going to receive the $78,000.
Mr. Gibbons. I agree with you 100 percent that conceivably the membership should have been consulted. But it was a temporary arrangement pending an opportunity for the first election. There was no question as to what the results would be because I was already elected by a vast majority of even the combined organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Was the membership consulted about the payment of the $78,000 ?
Mr. Gd3bons. The membership of the United Distribution Workers has authorized their representatives to make the arrangements. This was part of the arrangement. It was immediately reported back to the rank and file and each and every member of our organization knew about it and approved it, the reports which were submitted back to the shop meetings in those days by their shop stewards.
Mr. Kennedy. Each and every member was told that $78,000 had been paid out ?
Mr. Gibbons. I would not testify that each and every one of them did, but certainly it was widespread knowledge in our local union.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they specifically told at a membership meeting that $78,000 had been paid out ?
Mr. Gibbons. I suspect they were at the second membership meeting, the next membership meeting. But we never did hold in those days any single membership meeting as such, unless it was a special city- wide mass meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you give us some notes that show the fact that you paid out $78,000 and that it was reported to the membership ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't have any notes here that say
Mr. Kennedy. Have you any minutes there?
Mr. Gibbons. I have no minutes here either.
Mr. Kennedy. We have Mr. Camie testifying that the membership was never informed, at least of local 688.
Mr. Gibbons. Which membership are you talking about?
Mr. Kennedy. Local 688.
Mr. Gibbons. I am not speaking for the membership of 688. I am speaking for the United Distribution Workers.
14568 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. As I understood your testimony, you were then going to be the head of both groups, both organizations. The money that was used, at least in part, came from the treasury of local 688. You certainly had an obligation to them to inform them that this money was being used for this purpose.
Mr. Gibbons. I had no contact with the membership of 688. I had no responsibility in that organization. If I was an officer and had responsibility in that organization I am sure I would have done as I did in my own organization. I just had to assume that this organiza- tion was informed.
Mr. Kennedy. What about when Mr. Karsh and Mr. Church were paid off a year later?
Did you inform the membership at that time?
Mr. Gibbons. I certainly informed — I operated in that particular instance thoroughly within the framework of my responsibilities, my authority, and it was adequately reported back to the people.
Mr. Kennedy. When you say adequately reported back to the people, we have had examples of that before, Mr. Gibbons. My question was, Did you inform the membership that you were paying this $36,000 to Karsh and Church?
The fact is you did not.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. Well, just a minute before you come to any fast conclusions, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. All right.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. All I can tell you in terms of the authority in the case of Karsh and others is that it was reported to the proper bodies ; namely, the executive board and the steward's council. The expendi- tures are in the financial reports. The financial reports were adequately approved by the rank and file members of our union.
Mr. Kennedy. Could I see those financial reports?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't have those financial reports, but if there are any expenditures made in our union, they are included in a financial report.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it specifically shown that they were receiving this money and what it was for ; that these people were receiving money and were doing no work for it?
(Witness consulted with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. Unfortunately, I am informed that we don't have financial reports that far back so I am not in a position to state how they showed up on the financial reports.
The Chairman. Did you say fortunately, no, unfortunately?
Mr. Kennedy. You never made any announcement at any general membership meeting?
Mr. Gibbons. We didn't hold general membership meetings, to my knowledge, in those days.
Mr. Kennedy. You never took a vote or poll amongst the members as to whether they wished this money to be paid to these individuals?
Mr. Gibbons. We followed whatever constitutional procedure was in effect at that time, the constitution which the membership approved. If they didn't call for polling the membership then we didn't.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14569
Mr. Kennedy. You stated about 5 minutes ago that all these things should be approved by the membership, that your operation of the union should be approved by the membership. Here was the payment of a great sum of money, and I am asking you whether the membership was informed specifically and whether they approved of it. That is all I am asking you.
What is the answer ?
Mr. Gibbons. The membership was informed through the regular channels of our organization and the entire transaction was approved by the proper bodies.
Mr. Kennedy. In the Teamsters organization that could be Jimmy Hoffa?
Mr. Gibbons. To inform each member of the union this was a physi- cal impossibility. It was mentioned at the various units and division meetings of the union and in reports of the staff.
Mr. Kennedy. How was it mentioned ?
Mr. Gibbons.; It was a matter of great public notice in the St. Louis press.
Mr. Kennedy. We have not found that either.
Mr. Gibbons. It was published, I am sure, in both the two news- papers plus the labor paper.
Mr. Kennedy. We have not found that either. The first time we hear any mention of it is when your union and yourself was under investigation by a grand jury some years later and at that time the only mention made is the money to Lawrence Camie for $36,000. Then it says on page 6 of this booklet that you put out, "Defense of St. Louis Teamsters Local 688," but on the question of whether the new combined organization paid Lawrence Camie, the sum of $36,000 as severance pay, the imion is prepared to plead guilty.
This particular transaction has never been a deep hidden secret of the organization. It was the source of a great deal of discussion at the time. But the decision was made and approved by the member- ship in 1949 ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it ? I am asking you that.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. When you speak of approved by the member- ship, when the membership say to an officer, "we are herewith and now delegating you to make a decision on a certain matter," whether it be any kind of organization position, a church, a businessman, and I suspect in the United States Senate, you find that this constitutes membership approval. I am not even certain that this was intended there.
As I say I don't have it. It has been brought to my attention here, a question. Maybe this will help. On Tuesday, January 25, the question of merger was presented to stewards council. The pro- posal was accepted with only 3 opposing votes out of approximately 300 cast. That was at 8 o'clock after 2 hours of debate at the Jeffer- son Hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. Read in there where it says about the payment to these individuals.
Mr. Gibbons. This is part of the details reported to our shop stewards.
14570 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I want to find out if you ever informed the mem- bership about the payment of the money. I am sure they knew there was going to be a merger. I am sure that was in the news- papers. I am talking about the payoff.
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, I have, in anticipation of these hearings, recommended to our rank and file that they elect a person to come up here and hear the facts, every question asked me, so that the member- ship would get a firsthand report in addition to copies of the tran- script. One of our members is sitting in the room. You can ask him whether or not he ever heard about the money that was being paid. This is as close as I can come to it.
There are no secrets. Every member of our union knew about it, to our knowledge, that was interested knowing about it. It was dis- cussed before 300 shop stewards. Their only obligation is to go back and talk to the rank and file about what took place. They were advised that this would be a question of discussion before they came to the meeting. They discussed it with the membership as they always do on important issues.
They came and voted after 2 hours' debate with 3 people dissenting.
Mr. Kennedy. Specifically can you say that they were all informed of the amount of money that was being paid and the fact that these individuals were receiving this money ?
Mr. Gibbons. I cannot specifically say that because it would be a little ridiculous for me to say that 5,000, 6,000, or 7,000 men were specifically told that the issue was 68,000 or 18,000 in the case of Church. I only know they were told at that time. The figures were no secret. They were published figures. Our rank and file knew about it. They know about it as of today.
Mr. Kennedy. If you could give me some evidence that they knew that they were published, I would like to receive it. I have not seen anyplace where it was published.
Mr. Gibbons. I cannot take responsibility for the inadequacies of your Staff.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; all I am asking you is for some evidence of it. That is all. You say it was published. Give me some evidence of it.
Mr. Gibbons. When we handled this matter I had no anticipation in 1958 I would be here explaining this situation or I certainly would have made arrangements to see that I had adequate proof. I have all kinds of documents. I have a thesis that discusses it in great length. It is the case history of the labor union. It is a Doctor of Philosophy thesis at Washington University. It gives you in great detail the things that took place. He had access to all our records when he did this study on our union.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he got the money in there ?
Mr. Gibbons. He hasn't got the money.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all I am interested in.
Mr. Gibbons. He has a lot of interesting information about what a decent, clean, and democratic union 688 is. It was a very objective treatment of the subject, too.
Senator Ives. If I may interrupt there, who was this student?
Mr. Gibbons. This happened to be a Mr. Ball. He is now a teacher.
Senator Ives. Where ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14571
Mr. Gibbons. Pomona College. This is a dissertation presented to the department of sociology-anthropology of Washington University in partial fulfillment of a master's degree in the arts school by Harvey Ball, Jr. I understand he is now at Pomona College, California, teaching.
Senator Ives. He now has a master's degree ?
Mr. Gibbons. He may have gone on since this. This was published in 1950.
Senator Ives. Do you know whether he received the master's degree as a result of that work ?
Mr. Gibbons. This was in partial fulfillment, yes. This is from the library in question.
Senator Ives. That is supposed to be a thorough analysis of what occurred ?
Mr. Gibbons. It goes very thoroughly into the step-by -step details.
Senator Ives. How did he happen to omit this very question our counsel is asking?
Mr. Gibbons. How did he happen to omit it ?
Senator Ives. Yes. Usually when undertaking a thesis like that you really go into the general research of the whole business. You go after it. It is a funny thing he did not dig that out.
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know why he missed it, Senator. I am not a bit surprised that he would happen to miss it. It may be of inconse- quential moment.
Senator Ives. He received a master's degree.
Mr. Gibbons. Washington University happens to be one of the finest schools in the country, and I am certain that their standards are the highest.
Senator Ives. There is one thing about it. Apparently the one who is doing this kind of work does not understand labor relations.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Dave Beck with Washington University at that time?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know. I don't know whether Dave Beck was ever connected with Washington University. I think you are talking about the University of Washington. This is Washington University in the city of St. Louis. It is a different school.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Was there anything in connection with the violence involving your union?
Mr. Gibbons. No, it isn't. I have not read it, actually. So I am no authority. There may be stuff on the violence in connection with my union's activities. At the moment I have not read it.
Mr. Kennedy. We had a good deal of testimony before the commit- tee regarding your activities and the activities of some of the unions under your control in connection with violence. We had the testimony regarding, first from some police officers, that unions under your direc- tion and control have been continuously involved in violence in St. Louis, and then we had some specific testimony from some witnesses, for instance, in connection with the strike in 1953, December.
Mr. Gibbon. They just tell me this thesis does have some of the violence in there. It has the strike where some violence was reputed to have taken place.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you set up a goon squad to operate in St. Louis in December 1953?
14572 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, at no time in all of my activities in the labor movement have I ever set up anything or any group which in any way could be construed as being a goon squad.
Mr. Kennedy. What were these people that were meeting in De- cember of 1953, Sparks, Mitchell, Ferrara, Bommarito, and Licavoli ?
Mr. Gibbons. These are rank-and-file members of our unions partici- pating in the winning of a strike. They are grouped only because they were involved in the strike and they were handling it at that time. They either voluntarily grouped themselves or were assigned to certain groups.
Mr. Kennedy. They met about every morning at the headquarters and they testified before the committee that you gave them instruc- tions that they were to keep the cabs off the street.
Mr. Gibbons. I probably gave them instructions to keep the cabs off the street at various times during the strike. That is my job, to get the cabs off the street when there is a strike against taxicabs, but to do it peacefully.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you expect, for instance, Mr. Sparks, who at the age of 30 spent 19 years in prison, and Mr. Ferrara, who has a long criminal record, Mr. Mitchell, who spent a number of terms in the penitentiary, to do it peacefully ?
Mr. Gibbons. Well
Mr. Kennedy. There was not one of those people who did not have a criminal record. You told them to keep the cabs off the street.
Mr. Gibbons. They were active in the strike. There were probably hundreds and hundreds of other rank and file who had no criminal records who were also active.
Mr. Kennedy. I agree. How did you expect this group that was meeting at the headquarters to keep the cabs off the street without having violence in connection with it?
Mr. Gibbons. Here is the testimony of Sparks. He says, "Talk to them." These are instructions from Mr. Gibbons. "Talk to them. Show them where they are wrong." This is the kind of conversation I give my people to keep the cabs off the street.
Mr. Kennedy. He gave a little bit different impression in the affidavit. What about the testimony of Mr. Mitchell, and the fact that there was such a great deal of violence during December 1953. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Sparks testified as to who was responsible for it and from whom they had received their instructions ?
Mr. Gibbons. Let me just preface to some extent by saying to you that I am opposed to any kind of violence in labor disputes. It is my conviction that if labor's cause can be brought to the public, it has enough merit in and of itself to win their support, and their support is vital to the success of any strike.
In addition to this, when violence occurs, the best you can do is to alienate that kind of support. Just from a very practical reason, aside from any moral considerations which are important in these things, I oppose any kind of violence in strike situations.
Senator Ives. May I interrupt there ? Are you opposed to any kind of violence under any conditions ?
Mr. Gibbons. I wanted to add one qualification I have.
Senator Ives. Go ahead I want to hear that answer.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14573
Mr. Gibbons. However, I am 100 percent in support of workers' rights to defend their union and their picket lines. If violence hap- pens there, I have no quarrel with it. I hate to see it. I am very sorry for it. But I would support those workers in that effort.
Senator Ives. Then you are not opposed to violence under ordinary conditions.
Mr. Gibbons. No, I would not say I am opposed to violence under certain circumstances. For instance, the war.
Senator Ives. You knew very well that in the strike you were talk- ing about, that taxicab strike, your instructions invited violence.
Mr. Gibbons. No. My instructions did not invite, Mr. Senator. You cannot win a strike, you cannot win a strike with the cabs on the streets.
Senator Ives. No, but you told them to get the cabs off the street.
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Senator Ives. How are you going to get them off the street by peace- ful means if the drivers don't want to get off the street?
Mr. Gibbons. Here is the sworn testimony of his witness, not mine.
Senator Ives. I do not care about that I want the facts.
Mr. Gibbons. I will tell you how. By reasoning with those people, by talking to them, by pointing out the error of their ways.
Senator Ives. That did not work. You had violence.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, it did. We had violence.
Senator Ives. Certainly. You are bound to. You can't help it. I haven't anything further to ask you. I just wanted to clear that up. You are in favor of violence. You cannot avoid violence, you say.
Mr. Gibbons. I did not say I am in favor of violence. I think the American people hate violence that takes place in war, for instance.
Senator Ives. I am not talking about the American people. I am talking about you.
Mr. Gibbons. This is very comparable to my attitude, Senator. I am opposed to initiating any kind of violence in a strike situation. I don't think it serves our ends.
Senator Ives. The difference between what you are after and what happens in time of war when the United States is concerned are as different as night and day.
Mr. Gibbons. In that you and I would have to tend to disagree, because I think there is a parallel there.
Senator Ives. I think we would definitely disagree.
Mr. Gibbons. There is a parallel there inasmuch as it relates to my relation with my membership.
Senator Ives. It is awfully difficult to find it.
(At this point, the following members were present; Senators McClellan and Ives.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, for instance, in telling Harold Sparks to keep the cabs off the street, when he has a record that, at the age of 30, he had spent 19 years in prisons and reformatory. Has a repu- tation as a stickup man, a muscle man, a burglar, a gun carrier, and disposer of stolen furs. He was sentenced for 12 cases of burglary and larceny and 1 case of robbery. He was arrested for housebreaking and two cases of burglary and larceny. Numerous arrests for in- vestigation and suspicion of robbery. He was transferred from the State penitentiary to the State hospital for the insane at one time.
14574 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
You are telling Harold Sparks to keep the cabs off the street. What do you expect is going to happen ?
Mr. Gibbons. First, so there is no doubt in the exchange between Senator Ives and myself, I say unequivocally I am opposed to any initiation of any violence in any strike situation, and I regret on those occasions when it does occur.
This is just so that the record is clear and there is no confusion on that issue.
Senator Ives. Wait a minute. That is not according to the record. What you do is to invite violence.
Mr. Gibbons. You have to quarrel with that, Senator.
You certainly have every right to make that point.
Senator Ives. I have every right to reason it out that way, and I cannot reason it out any other way.
Mr. Gibbons. That is correct. But I want it clear, my own philos- ophy on this question. Now in regards to Mr. Sparks
Mr. Kennedy. Let me summarize some of these people that you were telling these things to. For instance, Joe Bommarito was an associate of known hoodlums in St. Louis, he threatened to kill Norman Fortner, drive over his wife, and kill his child. He has been arrested for assault to do great bodily harm, malicious destruction of property, and numerous other arrests for gambling. He runs a crap game con- tinuously, even as a union official at the present time. Joseph Bona is a known associate of prostitutes, assaults, arrested for prostitution, assault to kill, and numerous arrests for investigation.
Do you want to give him a list of these people ? I will give you a list of the people, and I will not read their names out.
I wouldn't read their names into the record. But I want you to look at some of the people who were working out of the union head- quarters, and to whom you gave these instructions.
The Chairman. About the list, I want to know first how many of them were members of his union.
Mr. Kennedy. They were all, of course, members of the union, but just some of them were officials.
Here is a copy.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Gibbons. Let's talk about Sparks and Bommarito, and who else did you mention?
You are not putting them in?
Mr. Kennedy. They are all in there. The third man down there is for stabbing, drugstore holdup, arrested for assault to kill, rob- bery, placed on probation for robbery. The third one down on the first page, do you see it?
The fourth one down is known to be a procurer of women, fined for beating a news photographer; fined for prostitution, placed his wife in a bawdy house, arrested for rape and peace disturbance ; two cases of carrying concealed weapons, plus numerous arrests for pros- titution, sentenced to 2 years on one occasion and 90 days on another occasion for auto theft.
The next one is vagrancy, nonsupport, internal revenue, white slavery, grand larceny, armed robbery, and carrying concealed weapons.
The next one, on the second page, nonsupport, prostitution, peace disturbance, and bogus checks.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14575
Another one was arrested for shooting his mother, peace disturb- ance, assault with intent to kill, and 2 years for burglary.
The next one, malicious destruction of property, assault to do great bodily harm, peace disturbance, and petit larceny.
Mr. Previant. Excuse me, counsel, is it the charge here that these people are officers of this union ?
Mr. Kennedy. No. But these are the people that meet at the union hall, been identified as meeting at the union hall, and were the ones that were told to go out and keep the cabs off the street.
My only point is that when you tell these people to keep the cabs off the street, that you have these acts of violence that we have had testimony to.
Mr. Gibbons. Let's discuss it, Mr. Kennedy. You raised the ques- tion.
Mr. Kennedy. I want an answer.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. I want to discuss it with you. I want to give whatever answer I am capable of giving. In the first place, if em- ployers hire these people, I am stuck with them in the union. I have to have them in the union. So I initiated nothing toward bringing these people into the labor situation we are discussing.
Mr. Kennedy. I have to raise a question about that.
Mr. Gibbons. Go ahead and raise it.
Mr. Kennedy. For instance, Joe Bommarito, do you have any evidence that Joe Bommarito ever drove a cab ?
Mr. Gibbons. I not only have evidence that he drove a cab; he probably drove one for 20 years.
Mr. Kennedy. He is not doing very well on his income-tax returns, then.
Mr. Gibbons. I am sure he has driven a cab in the city of St. Louis. I don't know Joe over a few years, but I am certain that he was a cabdriver.
Mr. Kennedy. He doesn't state that, you know, when he lists his income,
Mr. Gibbons. You are asking me if I have any evidence. I have a conviction that he has been a cabdriver for many years. I don't know whether or not I am in error on it, but I will bet that
Mr. Kennedy. What about Phil Keichardt?
Mr. Gibbons. Phil Reichardt?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Who heads his union ?
Mr. Gibbons. Phil Reichardt is acting secretary- treasurer by ap- pointment under a trusteeship arrangement. It is perfectly legal. The only qualification is that he be a member in good standing from a local union and he was that, from 688.
Mr. Kennedy. Had he ever driven a cab, for instance ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, because his job is not there because he happens to drive a cab. His job is there because he is a person of integrity. That is why he is there.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the one that appeared before the committee ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And took the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. O.K.
14576 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. Now, getting back to these people that you raise that I am giving instructions to and why should I have these kind of peo- ple around? No. 1, I did not bring them around. The employers brought them around, Mr. Kennedy, and I am stuck with them. I have to give them membership.
No. 2, 1 don't have the facilities of this committee to investigate the background of each and every member of my local union. I think it would be stupid on my part to go and investigate the background of every member that I have in my union. I certainly did not do it in the case of the cabs. I had no knowledge that these men were with the background that you have been able to at this date show up. When the situation developed in which a strike had to take place, these men came out on strike. They came to meetings. We sat down and we organized them into crews. We did not know who was in the crew, who was not in the crew.
The crew is not all the same kind of crew. The crews got all the same kind of instructions. Get the cabs off the street, those few that would run. Whenever they stop, wherever you can discuss it with them, talk to them, try and convince them their place is back in the garage with the cabs and on the streets with our men showing their solidarity to win a decent contract.
Mr. Kennedy. You were making payments to them for patrolling the streets, were you ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, I was not making any payments for them to pa- trol the streets. They were getting the same strike benefits anyone else was getting, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. But they were patrolling the streets, were they_ ?
Mr. Gibbons. They were like every other member of the union, either on a picket line, doing patrol duty, or both. Some of them were an- swering the phone in the office, some of them were working with the strike committee to dispense the moneys. But everybody had a job and a function during that strike.
Mr. Kennedy. I have some documents here.
The Chairman. I hand you here a voucher for strike expenditures, Teamster Local 688, dated December 14, 1953, "Strike, Yellow Cab, expense committee, 5 men cruising patrol, 1 week, $125."
I ask you to examine it and state if you identify it.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. I will also hand you two others, one dated Decem- ber 8, 1953, and the other dated December 14, 1953. One is in the amount of $15 for patrol, and the other is $125 for lost time, patrol duty, week ending December 15, 1953. I ask you to examine these and state if you identify them as vouchers out of the files of the union.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. Do you want me just to identify them, Senator?
The Chairman. First you may identify them.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes; they appear to be regular strike expenditure forms used by our strike committee in that strike.
The Chairman. Those three may be made exhibit 105, A, B, and C
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 105, A, B, and C" for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 14895- 14896.)
The Chapman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14577
Mr. Kennedy. That was the practice that you were discussing
Mr.GiBBONS. No; it is not the practice I was discussing. This, I don't believe, could constitute pay for 5 men for a week, $125. This, I believe, in addition to their strike benefits, which each of them received — the patrol cars were given certain expenses in connection with staying out all night — eating three meals a day, having gas and oil, maybe taking care of a tire, whatever the expense might be. Mr. Kennedy. But these were the patrols that were going out? Mr. Gibbons. I suspect these were the patrol cars.
Mr. Kennedy. And they were getting their
Mr. Gibbons. That is right, in addition to the $35-a-week strike expenses, which I believe was in effect. But you can't hold me to that. Mr. Kennedy. Of course, a number of these individuals whose records I mentioned here have been identified as the ones who were responsible for going out and beating the various cabdrivers and for the destruction or the damage that was done to the automobiles. Included, of course, was Mr. Bommarito. Does Mr. Bommarito have a position with the union at the present time ? Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; Mr. Bommarito is a staff member of our union. Mr. Kennedy. Specifically we had him identified as going out and beating one of the cab drivers. Then we also had the specific testi- mony that he was involved in the waylaying of the cab, and that he injured and hurt has back when he was trying to turn the cab over. Were you familiar with that, Mr. Gibbons ?
Mr. Gibbons. I can only say this to you, that on the witness who identified Mr. Bommarito, did anyone have a chance to cross-examine or examine his testimony ?
Mr. Kennedy. I think you were here.
Mr. Gibbons. Was his testimony ever submitted to the ordinary rules of evidence?
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons
Mr. Gibbons. The point I am making
The Chairman. This committee is not strictly bound by court rules of evidence. We are trying to get information. The witness testified and Mr. Bommarito was given an opportunity also to testify. My recollection is he took the fifth amendment. So this man who is charged by the witness certainly was given an opportunity to answer the charges against him and to comment upon them and to relate, if he cared to, the circumstances incident to the wrecking of the cab and his getting his back hurt. Mr. Gibbons. Yes, Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. I believe in connection with that we had three wit- nesses that identified Mr. Bommarito. We had Miss Bledsoe, Mr. Sparks, and Mr. Mitchell, three different witness.
The Chairman. Whoever the witnesses were. On Mr. Bommar- ito, whatever charges were made against him, or whatever derogatory testimony the committee heard, he was given an opportunity to refute. Proceed.
Mr. Gibbons. My only comment on the business of Mr. Bommarito being identified by three people, Mr. Kennedy, is that I have a re- sponsibility to evalute these individuals who work on my staff. I have had considerable association over the last few years, pretty inti- mate association, with Joe Bommarito. He strikes me as being a
14578 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
pretty responsible person. He strikes me as being a person who is dedicated to the interest of our membership. I know of his work, day and night, on the streets, trying to see to it that contracts are enforced.
The people who have come here and testified against him, I think you characterized one of them with a 5-minute dissertation on his record, Mr. Sparks, is hardly a credible witness. This is the problem I face, trying to evaluate whether or not the testimony of those 3 people has merit against what I personally know about this man and his character.
Now, I have got a lot to say later on about your other witness, Miss Bledsoe.
Mr. Kennedy. I will ask you in a moment about that.
The Chairman. Well, at this point, you recognize that if anything was testified falsely against Mr. Bommarito, whether by a person in disrepute or bad character or whether by people who were truthful, Mr. Bommarito was given the opportunity to refute it.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. I recognize that, Senator, and for his own reasons and in his own good conscience, he chooses to take the fifth.
I don't know if that has anything to do with the business of his being identified in that particular fracas that was discussed here before the committee.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. These other individuals testified and he refused to testify on the grounds that a truthful answer might tend to incrimi- nate him. Then, according to the testimony we had before the com- mittee, it was that while this cab was waylayed, and, while trying to turn the cab over, he hurt his back. You are familiar with that ?
Mr. Gibbons. You have testimony also there to the effect that that did not happen, from one of your witnesses, not ours, Mr. Cortor.
Mr. Kennedy. Don Cortor?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. He testified before this committee that he did not believe Bommarito hurt his back turning over a taxicab.
Mr. Kennedy. Because he did not think he had the guts to try.
Mr. Gibbons. That is right. This throws grave doubts in my mind on Mr. Bommarito, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. He appeared before the committee and said he could not answer any questions about that because a truthful answer might tend to incriminate him. Afterward, he did go to the hospital, he did have trouble with his back, did he not, Mr. Gibbons ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Who paid the bills ?
Mr. Gibbons. The union paid for his back injuries as it does with every injury involving any person involved in a strike in our union or any person involved in any work involving our union that is related.
The Chairman. Did you ascertain whether he actually did hurt his back working in the strike or overturning a car ?
Mr. Gibbons. I can't recall specifically what it was, but if we ap- proved his payment, Senator. I am sure it had to do with getting out of a car, or getting into a car, or some such thing as that. As you know, back injuries are very simple. They can get it by merely standing up, you can get a back injury, a slipped disk, and so on.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14579
So at the time, I am certain if we O. K.'d it as a union payment, it was related to legitimate union activities.
The Chairman. Well, our testimony indicates a particular char- acter of activity.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ascertain at the time the particular char- acter of activity that warranted you paying his hospital bills ?
Mr. Gibbons. I am sure I did, at the particular time, if I personally O. K.'d it.
The Chairman. Have you talked to Mr. Bommarito about this to refresh your memory ?
Mr. Gibbons. Since?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gibbons. No ; I have not. But I would be very happy to dis- cuss it with Mr. Bommarito, because Mr. Bommarito also on my recommendation will appear before a committee of membership of my union of local 688, which is already set up, already elected by secret ballot, to inquire into the activities of every person who takes the fifth amendment before this committee, Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Under oath?
Mr. Gibbons. Under oath. Well, I don't know under oath. I don't know about under oath.
I am sorry. My reaction was he would be telling the truth.
Mr. Kennedy. Maybe he is a little bit like Barney Baker, another Teamster official. As long as you are not under oath, you don't have to tell the truth.
Mr. Gibbons. You have some of your witnesses here, Mr. Kennedy, who are pretty bad in telling the truth, from the records we have on him, in addition to Mr. Baker, if this is true about Mr. Baker.
Mr. Kennedy. The hospital reports show it is not just a slipped disk. It says a fracture of the 12th vertebra.
Mr. Gibbons. I used slipped disk to show how simply a back can be hurt. It may be a fractured vertebra clowning around with someone.
Mr. Kennedy. But you don't have any information that he did not hurt it, as the testimony indicates he hurt it, trying to turn the car over.
Mr. Gibbons. I have two things. I have, one, the credibility of the witnesses that you bring here in this hearing in this particular instance, Mr. Kennedy, and secondly, I have the fact that if anything is O.K.'d in our union, generally it is strictly related to union activ- ities. Joe Bommarito was treated no differently than anyone else, to my knowledge.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question: If he in fact did hurt his back, trying to wreck a car in that strike, would the union have paid his hospital bills?
Mr. Gibbons. I think we would have raised a serious question about it, Senator.
The Chairman. You reckon so ?
Mr. Gibbons. I think we would.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Gibbons. I think we would.
Mr. Kennedy. Miss Bledsoe testified that the arrangements, Mr. Gibbons
14580 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. Senator, you understood I meant it would raise seri- ous questions about paying it, and it is very doubtful if then we would. I wanted to give you a complete answer.
The Chairman. I don't know the history of it, but so far, on the people that commit crimes, you pay for all their defense and all their living expenses and so forth, while they are in the penitentiary. I don't know why you would make an exception in this case. Do you ?
Mr. Gibbons. I know how I operate, Senator, and that is my basis for making the statement.
The Chairman. Well? we are learning.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir. And I hope to fill in a few gaps or straighten out the record in this hearing today, if I possibly can.
Mr. Kennedy. Miss Bledsoe testified, which would give some credence to the position that the other witnesses took, the fact that his injuries were paid for by the union, she testified that you were present at the time the instructions and the arrangements were made to waylay this cab.
Mr. Gibbons. This is, I think, about the fourth time or the fifth time — the fourth time under oath and possibly the fifth time — that Miss Bledsoe has been called upon to describe that particular meeting. I would like to advise you that in 1954, 1953, right after that meeting took place, in fact, the night that it took place, I was arrested in the city of St. Louis, and I was walked through a room, devoid of furni- ture, excepting 1 chair and 1 girl sitting on it. I did not recognize the girl. I was following a police officer through. I was taken through for the purpose of identification. This is a matter of hours after the meeting took place. Miss Bledsoe failed to identify me, and she told the police that "I never saw this man in my life before."
This was hours afterward. Later on, on February 25, 1954, she gave a deposition, and I have the deposition here, and it is under oath, and it happens to be in terms of a suit against the police of the city of St. Louis, and she again described this particular meeting where she now says I was present.
Again she does not find Mr. Gibbons in there. She describes at great length who was there. But never mentioned the fact that Mr. Gibbons was present.
Mr. Kennedy. I asked her a question about that.
Mr. Gibbons. Right.
This is the second occasion now, where there seems to be a dis- crepancy in her ability to remember.
Mr. Kennedy. She did not state you were not there, did she?
Mr. Gibbons. She described every one that was there.
Mr. Kennedy. She gave the reason that she did not mention you.
Mr. Gibbons. She did not give any reasons in this particular depo- sition. Later on, I will come to her fears. On August 11, 1954, she gave another sworn statement. Here they kept asking her, "Was anybody else present at that meeting? Was anybody else present at that meeting?" And Miss Bledsoe could not recall seeing Mr. Gibbons present at that meeting.
Again on November 8, 1954
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons, did she name Bommarito as one who was present?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe so, Senator.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14581
The Chairman. Whom did she name of your lieutenants who were present ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. John E. York was there, Joe Bommarito. She gives it.
Mr. Kennedy. Anybody else ?
Mr. Gibbons. Sparks and Licavoli.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Kavner ?
Mr. Gibbons. And Pasterick.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Gibbons. She states here, after having been reminded that she had lunch with Mr. Kavner, she had seen pictures of Mr. Kavner, they asked her "Was that man, Richard Kavner, was he present in the room that Saturday morning?" She said "Yes, I believe he was."
Going back, however, to her February deposition, it says :
On these previous occasions at the union hall, did you see Mr. Kavner there?
She says :
No, sir.
Did you see Richard Kavner before all of this happened at the union hall ?
Answer. No. At one time I mistakenly identified him as being there.
Mr. Kennedy. I think she testified to all of this on the grounds that she had been threatened.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Could I see those ?
Mr. Gibbons. A third name in a sworn deposition where she was again under oath describing again this Very same meeting — before the grand jury, rather
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. This statement is unsworn but her signature is on it. She says she has read the above 21/2 pages and they are true and correct to the best of my knowledge. "This statement is given by me without any promises or threats." Nobody was threatening her at all "on the part of anyone, and is made of my own free will." Again she fails to identify Mr. Gibbons there.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the date of that ? I understand it is Novem- ber 8, 1954?
The Chairman. May I ask the witness or his counsel, do you wish to have these made exhibits, these depositions, or do you wish to retain them ?
Mr. Previant. If the Chair please, they were put in merely to em- phasize or verify Mr. Gibbons' statements with respect to prior testi- mony. If the Chair believes there is an issue we would be glad to submit them. If there is no issue we would as soon retain them.
The Chairman. I would ascertain your wishes about them. Ordi- narily, unless the parties wish to retain the document, where they offer something that they feel is testimony the committee should receive, such as this, we make it an exhibit for reference, unless you prefer to retain it.
Mr. Previant. You understand that this is being offered for the limited purpose of prior testimony of this particular witness. There may be many other things in those statements that we would not want to offer on our part as it applies to other persons as part of the com-
21243— 59— pt. 39 3
14582 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
mittee's records. For that reason we prefer not to do so except these specific parts that relate to prior testimony by the witness Bledsoe.
The Chairman. All right, you may testify to it. The staff may examine the document and interrogate you about it.
Mr. Gibbons. In connection further with Miss Bledsoe, if I may proceed, she testified in the grand jury investigation of my activities in 1954 in the city of St. Louis. I do not know the nature of her testimony. One of the things she discussed was this meeting. My attorneys turned recently to the assistant prosecutor there, Assistant Thomas Goldshein, and my attorney told me if she testified that Harold Gibbons was in that office at that meeting I am sure Max Gold- shine would have indicted him in 30 minutes.
The reaction of this assistant was, "not 30 minutes, Mr. Kosenbloom, in 30 seconds." I don't know the testimony before the grand jury but I know I was not indicted and if Max Goldshine had an opportunity to indict me in those days he would have loved it. It is obvious in that case she had not. In your own committee record she gives this testimony to my being present in this meeting. She says :
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you meet at the hall at that time? Miss Bledsoe. Who did I meet at the hall? Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Whom did you have the discussion with? Miss Bledscoe. I was not formally introduced to them but I did learn later that Mr. Kavner was there and also Mr. Gibbons.
Apparently it is hearsay. It is no.t. Her direct testimony she saw me there. Later on under questioning again by Mr. Kennedy
The Chairman. May I ask you at that point, did you have a per- sonal acquaintance with the lady ?
Mr. Gibbons- I don't believe to the best of my recollection as of this day that I have ever had the honor except when she walked in here to take the oath, Senator. At the police station I saw her but I never recognized her and never gave her a second glance. To my knowledge I never talked to her or spoke to her.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Gibbons. Further in Mr. Kennedy's discussion with her, he says, referring to her testimony before the police in giving the police report of the clay that it happened, Mr. Kennedy asked her, "Did you include all of the facts to the police?" She said, "Yes, I did."
Then she adds as an afterthought, "I did not include the fact that Mr. Gibbons was there." A straight admission that all the facts does not include my presence at that meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. What did she say was the reason ?
Mr. Gibbons. She doesn't say. I haven't got to that point. I have only grabbed the testimony to that point. When Miss Bledsoe testi- fied about Joe Bommarito, when Sparks testifies about Bommarito, I think it is reasonable that I should have some questions in my mind as to the reliability of this type of testimony when I back it with what I know to be true about Joe Bommarito, his wife, and his family and his whole background.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, after this, did you inform any of these individuals who participated in these meetings, these daily meetings, that if they got into difficulty that they would have their legal fees paid by the Teamsters Union ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14583
Mr. Gibbons. In conducting any strike, Mr. Kennedy, I always assure the people that if they are arrested by the police we will be there to bond them out and if they have litigation as a result of it, we will pay the bills on it. This is a policy of our union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell them you would pay the legal bills if they got into difficulty?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell them you would pay their bonds if they got into difficulty?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; I am sure I did because it is standard operating procedure in our organization.
Mr. Kennedy. If they got sentenced to jail did you tell them that you would continue their salaries?
Mr. Gibbons. I probably didn't put it in terms of continuing their salaries. I in all probability told them that I would see to it that their families did not want for anything. That their families would not be evicted. That they would have consideration.
Mr. Kennedy. I would agree with you completely about the caliber of the witnesses, Mr. Gibbons. Certainly the people that testified before the committee on these acts of violence were not the most forthright witnesses or had the best backgrounds.
Mr. Gibbons. Some had mental cases. One had a silver plate in his head%
Mr. Kennedy. The only problem is that these were the ones that were selected, these are the ones that admitted they did these acts of violence and identified the other individuals. Those are the only people that are going to know. You say the employer selected them and you had to put up with them?
Mr. Gibbons. I accepted them.
Mr. Kennedy. You in turn selected them and we are stuck with them?
Mr. Gibbons. Volunteered, Mr. Kennedy. When they are active in the union, and want to help win a strike, far be it for me to try to stop them, unless I happen to know they are dangerous persons and I would not want any part of them.
Mr. Kennedy. They were dangerous. There were great acts of violence of 1953. The acts of violence were committed according to the testimony before the committee, by some of these individuals. You stated you did not personally tell them to go out and do it.
The facts are from your own admission is that you told them that their legal fees would be paid, their bonds would be paid, and if they went to jail their family would be taken care of. If that is not condoning this violence, I don't know what is.
Mr. Gibbons. I didn't say I didn't send them out there. I en- couraged them. I asked for volunteers. I asked for every single member to participate. When I have a strike I am out to win. The only way to win is with the mobilized strength of the rank and file.
Mr. Kennedy. But you put them in the position where you were inviting them to commit these acts of violence?
Mr. Gibbons. No. This is an interpretation which you will have to take responsibility for.
Mr. Kennedy. You are not doing it yourself. But you are having somebody to do it for you, which is far worse.
14584 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. I had no knowledge that Sparks had this record which you dug up. I had no means of finding out about that. I don't live with the 1,000 or 1,200 men in that union.
Senator Ives. I want to ask Mr. Gibbons a question. Am I cor- rect in gathering from what you are now saying that again you are emphasizing the fact that you believe in employing violence in order to win ?
Mr. Gibbons. Senator, I have tried to make clear that I am op- posed to any kind of violence in any kind of a labor dispute, but that I will defend the right of the workers to protect themselves against police, strikebreakers and thugs employed by the employers.
Senator Ives. That is something else you are talking about now.
Mr. Gibbons. Eight.
Senator Ives. I gather from what you said when they are in the midst of a strike in order to win
Mr. Gibbons. No.
Senator Ives. In order to win, if necessary, violence is in order?
Mr. Gibbons. I do not condone and subscribe to that kind of philosophy.
Senator Ives. I was going to ask you if you learned that philoso- phy in the school for workers in Wisconsin.
Mr. Gibbons. No.
Senator Ives. I know you did not.
Mr. Gibbons. No, I think this is self-defeating.
Mr. Kennedy. Starting on December 4, 1953, and going all through December of 1953, we have these acts of violence, the cabdrivers being beaten. We have, for instance, on December 4, 1953, the automobile identified as having been driven by those who participated in the beating. It was traced to one of the Teamster locals, local 600, and one of those participating in the beating was identified as William Rudolph, acting secretary-treasurer of local 405.
Mr. Gibbons. You know that Mr. Rudolph was arrested for that, that Mr. Rudolph went before a body of his peers, a jury.
(Witness consulted his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. I am sorry. This is a different instance.
Mr. Kennedy. I believe so.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Another one on the same day where a car was identified. Perhaps it is not enough proof to convict these indi- viduals, but again it is an accumulation.
December 4, 1953, Buford Barnes, a Yellow Cab driver, assaulted by men driving the same car, and William Rudolph admitted driving the car.
Mr. Gibbons. This is a compilation of violence, Mr. Kennedy, that I certainly regret ever took place.
Mr. Kennedy. What steps did you take to stop these acts of vio- lence ? Would you enumerate those for the committee ?
Mr. Gibbons. No. 1, I tried to assign staff people to watch the situation.
Mr. Kennedy. "Who were they ?
Mr. Gibbons. People like Dick
Mr. Kennedy. Dick Kavner ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14585
Mr. Kennedy. Every place he goes in the United States he is in- volved in violence.
Mr. Gibbons. This is a statement you cannot substantiate, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Wichita, Ivans.
Mr. Gibbons. Wichita, Kans., that is one situation and Dick Kav- ner goes all over this country.
Mr. Kennedy. Des Moines, Iowa.
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know of any violence in Des Moines, Iowa.
Mr. Kennedy. There was a considerable amount.
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know any that took place and that comes under the territory I am responsible for.
Mr. Kennedy. Who else did you assign to keep peace ?
Mr. Gibbons. I assigned John Nabor. I have probably the largest staff of any union in the city of St. Louis, and when a strike takes
Elace, they are on duty 24 hours a day. Their instructions are to eep down violence and to avoid any violence.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell them that anybody found involved in violence would be punished ?
Mr. Gibbons. They would certainly be removed from activity in the strike if we could be convinced of this sort of thing.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you announce that ?
Mr. Gebbons. I probably discussed it at great length at our staff meetings.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell any of these people ?
Mr. Gibbons. I am certain I told these people. It is very difficult to go back and repeat word for word things that I said. I know my philosophy towards violence.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any statement that you have written showing that you were against violence at that time?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. It is instructions to pickets. Where are the instructions to pickets? I did not write this. It happens that it was drafted at my request by our attorney.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the date of this ?
Mr. Gibbons. This is undated. It is a series of strikes which we had.
Mr. Kennedy. I want just the instructions you gave.
Mr. Gibbons. These are the instructions we gave. Among all the others here is an example. One further word — this is addressed to the pickets — at. no time will any improper pressure or unlawful restraint, coercion, or interference— no, this is not it. This may be the wrong one. Here. Remember, I am reading now from the document which is handed out to pickets. Remember, we want this line to be peaceful. We believe we can gain our purposes only — it is capitalized and under- lined— only by winning public support and respect. Intimidation, threats, musclemen tactics, and disorder will not gain this public sup- port and respect, but rather will cause us to lose it. Therefore, at all times conduct yourself quietly, orderly, and as a gentleman. I don't know how strong, how specific, how correct I can be beyond those words.
Senator Ives. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chairman ?
TheCiiAiKMAN. Senator Ives.
14586 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. I would like to inquire what you do when they do not follow those instructions. Do you penalize them in any shape or manner?
Mr. Gibbons. I will discuss this thing with you. It so happens in social conflict it seems that violence is an inevitable part of it all down through history. It is just as true today as it was 100 years ago. Despite the best efforts there is bound to be violence flaring now and again in areas of social conflict. There is no greater area of social conflict than a strike situation.
Senator Ives. Probably I know that as well as you do. I am asking what you do.
Mr. Gibbon. This is very important so you understand what I do about it.
Senator Ives. It is very important.
Mr. Gibbons. To understand the area in which I have to operate. There are instances where violence flares and then I call persons incon- ceivably. I may have a discussion at the next strike meeting. I try to reason with the people that this is not going to help us. At the best this is going to alienate a lot of support and you will solidify the opposition of those who are at the moment working and things of that sort. Where I find a crackpot is just simply out there using violence without any sense of responsibility or without any defensive capacity, I completely isolate him from the strike and ask him to go home. If I find someone drunk, it is a standing order he cannot go near the picket lines.
Senator Ives. Do you kick any of them out of the union for violence ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, we do not.
Senator Ives. You should.
Mr. Gibbons. This is a question, Senator, that one must approach very carefully when you kick people out of unions. To my knowledge in 15 years in local 688 as the top administrative person, I don't recall a single solitary member of my union who was ever kicked out, even under charges.
Senator Ives. What you do actually is the exact opposite. Actually you reward them.
Mr. Gibbons No.
Senator Ives. Yes, you do. You take care of their families. You pay them sometimes when they are in jail.
Mr. Gibbons. You cite me an example where I rewarded anyone for indulging in violence.
Senator Ives. I heard your testimony.
Mr. Gibbons. I was referring to the men who were unjustly ar- rested by the police department who hate our particular organization.
Senator Ives. You are qualifying now. When you made that statement in the first instance, you did not make any such qualifica- tion as that.
Mr. Gibbons. I am stating the actual facts of what I was talking about when I was telling our people. I just go on the assumption that they are not going to engage in offensive violence as such.
Senator Ives. As I recall, you cited only one instance where they did not get paid. In every other instance they are given to under- stand that they will be paid, protected, they will be given bond and
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14587
all those things. In other words, you are rewarding them for doing the very thing you claim right now you condemn. Reconcile that, will you ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, I will if you will give me a moment's time. I will be very happy to.
Senator Ives. Go ahead.
Mr. Gibbons. No. 1, 1 sit in my office and a telephone call comes in. If one of the other officers is there, he takes it. It is a call from the police department. Somebody is in jail. The first thing is that we want him out of jail. We order him out of jail. We don't know whether he is justly or unjustly arrested.
Senator Ives. Your first impulse is to get him out of jail whether he is guilty or not.
Mr. Gibbons. Not on the basis whether he is guilty or not. I am not in a position to find out whether he is guilty.
Senator Ives. What do you do ?
Mr. Gibbons. There is a court procedure which I have a thorough respect for.
Senator Ives. When I get through with you I want to find out whether you learned these things in the workers school in Wisconsin. You did not. That is a mighty fine institution for workers. There is nothing you are talking about now that is in their category or cur- riculum.
Mr. Gibbons. The thing which I learned at that school and what I said is an expression of a solidarity of men in the struggle for decent working conditions and wages. I got a basic understanding of that at that school and this is the basic application.
Senator Ives. Not today. Not with the laws we have at the pres- ent time.
Mr. Gibbons. There is nothing in the law.
Senator Ives. You have the National Labor Relations Act at the present time. You have all of the procedures in the world to pro- tect you and help you get what you want if you deserve it. You should have no reason for such strikes today.
Mr. Gibbons. You can find nothing in the Wagner Act or the Taft-Hartley Act which has to do with getting a pension program or a decent wage rate.
Senator Ives. No, but you have collective bargaining. You have nothing in that act that in any way, shape, or manner exonerates any- body from the violation of other laws or permits violence in any way, shape, or manner.
Mr. Gibbons. This is what we strike for, Senator. It is not in terms of the Taft-Hartley law. There are no alternatives in the Taft- Hartley law against violence.
Senator Ives. Let me get this straight between you and me. I am not opposed to striking under certain conditions. The right to strike is inalienable in our whole setup in this country. But you claim you are opposed to violence under any circumstances except under certain strike conditions. The evidence you have given us here today indi- cates that you are in favor of violence under almost any conditions where strikes occur.
Mr. Gibbons. I would like the record read back where I gave any evidence here that I approve of violence under any circumstances in strikes.
14588 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. You have to read the whole record to establish that. All you have said indicated that.
Mr. Gibbons. I don't recall ever having entered any such evidence here.
Senator Ives. You read it over.
Mr. Gibbons. During this day's testimony.
The Chairman. The committee will take a 5-minute recess.
(Members present at the time of taking the recess: Senators Mc- Clellan and Ives. )
(At the reconvening of the session after the brief recess the fol- lowing members were present: Senators McClellan and Ives.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, did you make any investigation to determine who was responsible for this violence that took place?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, every morning we met with the people, and we questioned them about their activities of the night before. We received reports from them and we questioned them about it. In those ses- sions, which I did not necessarily attend, I am sure questions were raised about what exactly took place.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you
Mr. Gibbons. Satisfactory answers were, in all events, given. Otherwise, it would have been brought to my attention.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not look into it any further ?
Mr. Gibbons. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conferences with the police to try to stop the violence ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, because I am not a very popular figure with certain of the police in St. Louis, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Of course, they testified before the committee that the reason for that was that ever since you came to St. Louis, you and your unions have been involved in violence.
Mr. Gibbons. Let me discuss the role of violence as a total pattern out there in St. Louis in regard to my activity. You had Moran in here, who is head of the bombing squad and the chief police officer in St. Louis relating to the union activities. He told you of all of this pattern of violence on my activity. In his whole story, he was only able to mention 10.
It is bad that he could have mentioned one. The fact that he men- tioned 10 does not make it any better. When I checked back on the record, and I have it here, every strike we conducted, you will find by checking this record close to 250 plants were shut clown and strikes conducted against them in that same period in which he found violence only in 10. It would seem to me that it would hardly constitute a pattern when in less than 3 percent of the strikes which I was respon- sible for, activety involved in, any violence occurred.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that is not entirely correct.
Mr. Gibbons. Maybe it isn't. It is an opinion.
Mr. Kennedy. It would depend on the facts surrounding the strikes.
Mr. Gibbons. Eight. That is what I want to discuss now.
Mr. Kennedy. It would depend on a comparison with the other violence that took place in St. Louis, and his statement to the com- mittee was that you, and the unions that you have been associated with, have been responsible for a pattern of violence since you came to St.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14589
Louis. The police officers have testified to that. That is not Mr. Mitchell or Mr. Sparks or Mary Lou Bledsoe.
Mr. Gibbons. All I am trying to do with Mr. Moran's testimony, on patterns of violence as relates to my activities, is to put it in its proper perspective. It is less than 3 percent of the strikes that I have been involved in. Right now, for instance, in the city of St. Louis, there is a cab strike on. About 200 cabs are involved. There has not been the slightest violence involved in the thing. But, in any event, aside from that, this is the picture. When you take some of the violence which was testified to here, it taxes one's imagination to really believe, one's credibility to really believe, these stories.
One guy testified here in a taxicab situation 15 bullets were shot into a taxicab with a woman and 2 children or 2 women and a child in it.
Suddenly, none of these people even got scared or hurt.
Secondly, there was no question about even finding the women after the thing occurred. One of the favorite devices in a taxicab strike, which is typical of employers trying to put the blame on trade unions for violence, is to take a taxicab in an alley, shoot it up with bullets, and call the police and say, "Look what they are doing."
That is the only way I can imagine a taxicab would ever get 15 bullets in it, with 3 people in it, and not kill anybody, especially if there are 3 people in it as he testified.
Mr. Kennedy. We have a number of people, if you want to go into it, where they had to go to the hospital, that they were very badly beaten.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; secondly, because most of this violence occurred in terms of taxicabs
Mr. Kennedy. Do you want their names?
Mr. Gibbons. I got it in the testimony, I believe, Mr. Kennedy, and I have read it pretty thoroughly.
Mr. Kennedy. You have not the names of the people who were beaten ?
Mr. Gibbons. No. I say I have it in the testimony, and I have read it pretty thoroughly, and I am acquainted with each of the individual cases. In the taxicab disputes which took place in St. Louis, especially in the early days which he dealt with, an awful lot of it, there was severe resistance on the part of management, and whenever a strike would take place there were shootings on the street, and there were shootings both from those who were participating in the strike and those who were not.
How I can be responsible for that kind of violence, I will never know. I have tried to keep our people from engaging in any violence, but the people who refuse to come out, the people whom the campanies put in the cabs to run the cabs in the face of a strike, those people carried guns and shot at our members who were on strike also.
The Chairman. May I ask you, Mr. Gibbons, at that point, is it your theory that if there is a strike and someone desires to work, that that should subject him to violence?
Mr. Gibbons. No; it is not my theory.
The Chairman. Is it your theory that the man who wants to work, even though there is a strike, should have protection against violence?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, it isn't a theory of mine that he should have protection. He has adequate protection in the police forces of the various communities. But I certainly am not going to
14590 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Is that the only protection that you think he is entitled to ; whatever they can give him ?
Mr. Gibbons. I am so fundamentally in disagreement with anyone working during a strike that I would not be the author of a proposal to protect him in his right to scab.
The Chairman. I understand you are. But the other citizens in this country, and many of them, do have the theory, and honestly believe, that they have just as much right to work as you do to go on strike.
Mr. Gibbons. I can believe that.
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. Gibbons. I believe that.
The Chairman. You agree with that?
Mr. Gibbons. I believe it, that this is true. I don't agree with it, necessarily, but I believe it.
The Chairman. But as a matter of equal protection of the law, if a man desires to work and his employer wants to employ him, then you say that he is entitled to protection ?
Mr. Gibbons. Senator, I would say to you that there is more
The Chairman. I say, Is he entitled to protection from violence?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, I assume that society would protect that in- dividual.
The Chairman. You assume ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. And I would have no objection to protecting him against any kind of violence. But I would say to you there is more involved than a legalistic right of an individual to work during a strike. There is a tremendous moral question there, Senator, worthy of a long discussion, when it comes to people working during strikes.
The Chairman. I think I know the arguments on both sides.
The position I am taking is: If a man desires to work, do you take the position, if there is a strike on, that he is not entitled to work and not even entitled to protection from violence?
Mr. Gibbons. No, sir. I say immoral as the conduct may be, I think the man is entitled to protection from violence. I certainly do.
The Chairman. All right. When you sent out men to keep the taxicabs off the street, you do not mean for them to engage in violence?
Mr. Gibbons. I certainly do not. I always add the word "peace- fully," when I discuss getting them off the street.
The Chairman. I know, the words you use depend sometimes upon the inflection you give them.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
The Chairman. You can say peacefully and at the same time im- ply keep them off the street.
Mr. Gibbons. The wink and the nod, as it were.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gibbons. But this does not apply in my particular case. Let me add something in terms of the taxicab strikes that were testified to here. There are courts in this country, and there are things known as injunctions. In labor disputes in the State of Missouri, the city of St. Louis, they are very easy to get. One of the worst cases of vio- lence occurred in the Allen Cab strike.
If it is true that we were the ones that were responsible for it, and some poor employer was defenseless in the face of our violence, one
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14591
would imagine that he would send his attorney down 5 minutes after it happened and get an injunction against violence.
I don't believe Ave have ever opposed an injunction in our union against restraint of violence. But in this case where we are sup- posed to be so bad, he never even came down and tried to make a case for violence and get an injunction.
The Chairman. In that strike, did you know of the violence that was taking place ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, I did not know specifically of it. It isn't printed.
The Chairman. Did they come in and make reports the following morning on the events that had transpired the night before ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, they did that, my pickets did.
The Chairman. In those reports, did they tell you about the violence ?
Mr. Gibbons. No. Many of the incidents I learned here from Mr. Foster's testimony. I was not aware of those instances of violence. They were not reported to me.
The Chairman. Did they report any instances of violence to you ?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, it is, again, going back 10 years, Senator, and I think I would be in error to attempt there to reconstruct that to the point where I could definitely testify about it. I am sure if any vio- lence took place, which was brought to the attention of our pickets or our staff guys, they would have reported it in the regular reports the next day.
The Chairman. Was the report made to you that a taxicab, was run off into the river ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, sir.
The Chairman. Was it reported to you that a taxicab was turned over and Mr. Bommarito hurt his back ?
Mr. Gibbons. Incidentally, I was aware of the fact that a taxicab went into the river, as did a million other people in the city of St. Louis, because it was a published fact, and around the strike itself there was some
The Chairman. It is your theory that it was done by the employer, that he would have someone drive his cab into the river?
Mr. Gibbons. No. But in the light of what has already happened in the history of labor in this country, deliberate acts of violence on the part of employers to put a union in bad standing in the community, I would not be a bit surprised that an employer would go to that extent.
The Chairman. You would say that is your theory ?
Mr. Gibbons. But I would not say in this instance that I was under the impression that the employer put it in. But it certainly would be possible.
The Chairman. In the instance where the cab had several bullet holes in it, and I believe a picture of that has been made an exhibit, is it your theory in that instance that the owner or the employer had a cab shot up like that, simply to make an exhibit of it, and to cast upon the union the suspicion of guilt?
Mr. Gibbons. No, but this is the only explanation I would have of that cab, in the light of the fact I can't conceivably believe the first story in which 15 bullet holes, including into the glass, could possibly be put into a taxicab with three people in it without someone being hurt.
14592 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman-. There have been greater miracles than that.
Mr. Gibbons. Right after a strike took place, let's read the testi- mony in a court case given by the attorney for the particular cab com- pany we are discussing now, the Yellow Cab. Look what he says about the union. He says :
The evidence will be that there were some acts of violence, not condoned either by the cab company or by the union, never sanctioned.
He says:
And I think the evidence will be here that we are dealing with some hotheaded individuals. Let's put it that way, we are dealing with some of these cab drivers, and with some of these hotheaded individuals that performed this assault on Mr. Herzwurm, much to the dismay of the cab company and of the union as well.
This is not a union man. This is the attorney for the Yellow Cab Co. in one of the instances.
The Chairman. How bad was that man hurt?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know how bad that man was hurt, Senator. I read in the testimony as to what
The Chairman. What was the nature of the case? You said it was a case in court. What was the nature of the case ?
Mr. Gibbons. This was a suit by Mr. Herzwurm against the cab company.
The Chairman. Against the cab company ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, and certain individual defendants, including Mr. Gibbons.
The Chairman. He was defending a suit?
Mr. Gibbons. No, he was pursuing a suit or pushing a suit. Do you mean the attorney ?
Yes, the attorney was.
The Chairman. The attorney was defending the case?
Mr. Gibbons. The attorney was.
The Chairman. And he was trying to blame it on hotheads?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, he is a member of the bar and I assume a re- sponsible person. He was appearing before a court of which he was a member, and I assume he was telling the truth.
The Chairman. In presenting lawsuits, you present a theory, often in the face of facts, so if the jury wants to go on theory, they may have the opportunity to do so.
Proceed.
Senator Ives?
Senator Ives. I would like to ask the witness a question.
How long is it that you say you have been the head of that local in St. Louis ?
Mr. Gibbons. In various forms that the local took from one form to the other, I was the chief administrative officer since 1941.
Senator Ives. That is a period of 17 years, approximately?
Mr. Gibbons. I believe so.
Senator Ives. During that period of time, how many strikes have there been ?
Mr. Gibbons. I have a complete list of each and every strike.
Senator Ives. I did not ask you what they are. I don't care any- thing about seeing what they are. I want to know how many you have had. Can you tell me that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14593
Mr. Gibbons. My estimate on this is a total of close to 250.
Senator Ives. In which you were engaged ?
Mr. Gibbons. Shops were shut down in which I was engaged.
Senator Ives. 250 ?
Mr. Gibbons. Right.
Senator Ives. That is considerable over 10 years; isn't it?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, 10 years, almost 1 a month.
Senator Ives. It is more than that. It is about one a month.
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Senator Ives. Let me ask you a question in that connection. There is a period of 17 years. You are a gentleman with a considerable background in labor relations.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Senator Ives. I mean, I recognize that.
Mr. Gibbons. Thank you.
Senator Ives. I don't quite understand how you have had this record of strikes. Do you mean to tell me you don't know how to get along with management, or there is something wrong with management ?
Mr. Gibbons. I think I do a fairly good job of renewing agreements.
Senator Ives. But your record of strikes does not show that.
Mr. Gibbons. The record of strikes includes things like renewing of agreements.
Senator Ives. I understand.
Mr. Gibbons. But it also includes a tremendous number of recogni- tion strikes, strikes when you get a majority, you walk in and you talk to the company, and they refuse to recognize you. It even includes instances, Senator, where we struck for 6 solid months just to get an election under the NLRB. We ran full page ads in the Washington papers here to bring to the attention of Congress what was happening, and full page ads in the St. Louis press.
Senator Ives. Do you mean the management of St. Louis is so much opposed to recognizing unions that you have had a strike on the av- erage of once a month for IT years ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is correct. You have to understand also that we are operating in a very low-wage sweat industry, the warehousing field.
Senator Ives. I know that.
Mr. Gibbons. And we had a long way to go to get up to decent conditions, which we have arrived at today.
Senator Ives. But here you are an individual, with above average intelligence, with this considerable background in labor relations and formal study in that field. I would think you ought to be*able to avoid that. I have a little experience and theory on that myself, over a
Eeriod of 25 years. I have never been where I could conduct a strike, ut I think I have been where we know how to avoid them if possible. Mr. Gibbons. I would say to you that I have 300 companies under contract in the city of St. Louis. For 15 years we have renewed agree- ments, and if you put the record of strikes against the record of suc- cessful negotiations, you will come down with, again, a very, very small percentage of that. So while the record is bad that there should have to be any strikes, necessarily, I would have preferred to have avoided them, nevertheless, again putting into perspective, 688 does an excellent job, Senator, of renewing its agreements.
14594 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. Bear in mind, please, that I am bitterly opposed to sweetheart contracts, and it is a violation of our whole concept in that field. But are you on friendly terms with management in St. Louis, yourself ?
Mr. Gibbons. Am I on friendly terms ?
Senator Ives. Yes ; or do you occupy a position where you are trying to find differences and trying to stir up conflicts ?
Mr. Gibbons. Let me say this: With the management that I have to deal with, I think, basically, I am in pretty good terms with them. But in terms of the business community of St. Louis, I am not on good terms with them.
Senator Ives. By business community, you don't mean the taxicab business.
Mr. Gibbons. I am talking about the total community, including what we call civic progress. Incidentally, my local union in 1942, probably, went on record for the adoption in the city of St. Louis for the Toledo plan, which is an effort to work out your problems in the field of labor relations without strife and conflict.
Senator Ives. I am acquainted with that plan.
Mr. Gibbons. I have tried time and again, uninvited, with the top people in St. Louis, to try to build some bridges between the labor movement and the business community, in order that we can join together in building a better St. Louis and avoid these strikes, because they don't help the community, they don't help the business, and they don't help the workingman. A strike that is necessary is a shame, any strike.
Senator Ives. Most strikes, you recognize, can be avoided.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; but once in a while something happens.
Senator Ives. Once in a long while there is provocation for a strike, but most of them can be avoided. I am curious why you had so many. Is it because you could not get any response from management out there, or is it because you were trying to stir up trouble yourself ?
Mr. Gibbons. I would attribute it to two factors : One, a very low- paid industry, which had successfully resisted organization up to this time, and they did not want to change their way of life. No. 2, we had such a long way to go that perhaps our demands were a little bit stiffer than the next one. You can throw in another factor ; during many of those years, I was in the CIO, and that automatically, in those days, at least, put two strikes on you, when you went into talk to manage- ment.
Senator Ives. You recognize, don't you, early in their days the CIO used to have a lot of Commies.
Mr. Gibbons. Not associated with Harold Gibbons, because my record is clear on that.
Senator Ives. But you know that that may be one reason why there may have been prejudice against the CIO.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes; that may be true. We were a pretty militant crowd.
Senator Ives. I think you have cleaned them out now. But I am curious to know why you, with your background, get involved with these things, because you, of all people, should be able to avoid them.
Mr. Gibbons. There is another factor, or it is a factor in it, I don't
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14595
know excepting in terms of a low-paid industry, a fight to bring it up to decent standards. This is about the only explanation I can give you.
Senator Ives. You say the people of St. Louis, in business, generally are not in sympathy with youl
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Senator Ives. Whose fault is that, yours or business ?
Mr. Gibbons. I will take the blame for it, let me put it that way, be- cause I have been fighting for issues which are pioneering in many respects. We have in our operation the finest medical care program in existence in the United States. It is not cheap.
No good medical care is cheap. It is expensive.
Senator Ives. I know something about that.
Mr. Gibbons. The rest of the business community does not want this thing to sit there. To them it is a time bomb. Their own em- ployees or their own unions might get the idea they want a labor health institute. We have a pension program. We have a big camp for our people, with a baseball diamond, swimming pool, everything else. These things are a little unique, and the business community does not want it to spread too far. Maybe this is why I am a little too unpopular.
Senator Ives. Are you too oppressive for the business community ?
Mr. Gibbons. There may be an element of that, too.
Senator Ives. I am not talking now about what the committee is investigating, but I am talking about Mr. Gibbons. I am talking about you. Can't you, yourself, be a little more reasonable?
Mr. Gibbons. My aggressiveness is related to the needs and welfare of my rank and file members.
Senator Ives. I understand that, but you have to bear in mind the community in which you live. You can't travel faster than the traffic will allow you to go.
Mr. Gibbons. 1 agree with you that the temper of the business com- munity and the times are important factors which a labor organizer should give consideration to. Otherwise, he is going to involve himself in conflict 100 percent of the time. I think the point you make is very well.
Senator Ives. I take it you agree, then, that perhaps you have tried to go too fast.
Mr. Gibbons. There is perhaps that possibility. I wouldn't neces- sarily agree.
Senator Ives. And you would also agree that you possibly have not made the friends among the people in St. Louis that you should have ?
Mr. Gibbons. In these days, it is a little dangerous to make friends among the business people, with sweetheart contracts.
Senator Ives. I am not advocating anything like that. I am bit- terly opposed to that. But that does not mean that labor and man- agement should not be in agreement.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir, I can say that.
Senator Ives. You can get together and work together without hav- ing sweetheart contracts.
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir. And I think that the very business of col- lective bargaining is the very essence of democracy, in that men with divergent ideas and interests can sit around the table and settle those. I think it epitomizes the idea of democracy.
14596 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. You have the ability and you have to bear that in mind. You have to be a missionary in this business in St. Louis. If management is what you say it is in St. Louis, you have a job on your hands, without stirring up a lot of trouble. Keep the peace. You can do it.
Mr. Gibbons. I have a few very good friends out there in the busi- ness world, too, that I am proud of.
Senator Ives. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, for taking the time, but I wanted to find out what it was all about.
Mr. Kennedy. Just a question I asked you originally. Did you have any conferences with the police in order to attempt to find out who was responsible for the violence or stop the violence in 1953 ?
Mr. Gibbons. The police in the city of St. Louis, especially the ones related to the labor problem, would be the last ones I would ever ap- proach with relation to the problem of our union, so I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not discuss it with them at all ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you offer any kind of rewards to try to find out who was responsible for the violence ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, we never offered any rewards for finding out who was the perpetrator of any violence, We offered a reward to get the Greenlease money, the kidnappers.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you learn of the cab going into the river ?
Mr. Gibbons. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you read it in the newspapers shortly after.
Mr. Gibbons. I am not sure it was in the newspapers shortly after but I suspected it was.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what interested me. It was not in the news- papers shortly after it went into the river.
Mr. Gibbons. I was mistaken about it.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you find out about it ?
Mr. Gibbons. Among other things I read it in the newspapers when your committee pulled it out of the river, and I had no knowledge of my own that there was a cab in the river.
Mr. Kennedy. You had not known before then ?
Mr. Gibbons. No.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you indicated to Senator Ives that you learned immediately after that?
Mr. Gibbons. No, I don't believe I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Mitchell testified regarding the conversation with you in which you told him to go on his own.
Mr. Gibbons. May I consult with my attorney for a moment ?
(Witness consulted with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. The question, Mr. Kennedy, will you repeat it so I will be absolutely certain of it?
Mr. Kennedy. I am talking about Mr. Mitchell's testimony re- garding the conversation that he had with you prior to the time that he testified he drove the taxicab into the river. Did you have any con- versation with him wherein he told you that he was going to go off and do things on his own ?
Mr. Gibbons. I never had any conversation with him to my recol- lection in which he said he was going to go off on his own and do things on his own.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14597
Mr. Kennedy. Did he make any arrangements with you that you would send someone to the Missouri Athletic Club and that he would pick up the taxi there?
Mr. Gibbons. I have absolutely no recollection of the meeting he spoke of being on the street one day.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you send anyone to the Missouri Athletic Club ?
(Witness consulted with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. I have no recollection of ever having sent anyone to the Missouri Athletic Club for purposes of meeting Mitchell and having him destroy a cab and if I did I am pretty certain I would recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be the point. I would think that would be one thing you could remember, if you had done something like that ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, I think I should be able to remember that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that you did?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't deny it because I am. fearful of my memory letting me down. I am very conscious the tricks the mind can play on you. The things you are most certain of you of ttimes are all wrong on. This is one of the instances where I don't want to fly in the face of testimony even though the testimony was pretty bad because I cannot recollect any such conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think it is possible that you did do this thing ?
Mr. Gibbons. Not on the basis of how I know myself to be I am cer- tain it could not be possible.
Mr. Kennedy. But you are not prepared to deny it ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, again I say to you it is only because I am fearful that I can't remember it and I am fearful to go and say it. I would like to be able to say that I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I think it would be helpful if you could.
Mr. Gibbons. I am very conscious how helpful it would be, also. But I don't propose to say something which I am not certain about, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. We will let the record rest like that.
On this exhibit that you were discussing, before, I thought we would clear that up, too. This is the individual who was beaten versus the cab company, isn't that right ?
Mr. Gibbons. This Hertzworm's testimony. I was the defendant in that suit.
Mr. Kennedy. This is versus the cab company ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is right. Including Harold Gibbons.
Mr. Kennedy. The cab company and the union. It says just versus the cab company ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So the attorney that you quoted from, was defending the cab company in this matter?
Mr. Gibbons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Against the man who was beaten?
Mr. Gibbons. In that legal proceeding because I was a defendant in it, in that legal proceeding the court found I had no place in there and they dismissed my end of it. It would seem logical that if Mr. Herzwurm was suing me for money he would try to establish to the satisfaction of the court that somewhere I was involved. Apparently
21243— 59— pt. 39 4
14598 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
he did not say I was at that meeting because under those circumstances I question whether the court would dismiss me as a defendant.
Mr. Kennedy. I think he didn't sue the union. The cab company joined the union. That is what happened. My only point was on the question that the lawyer at that time was
Mr. Gibbons. That is right. That is what I was quoting from. I think I pointed that out to Senator McClellan. I think he recognized that, too.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, we also had the testimony on the incident where a man by the name of Ford was beaten attempting to go into a union hall and the testimony from Mr. Walla that he called you and you sent over certain individuals to act as doormen.
Mr. Gibbons. This brings me back to that same realm that we were previously discussing as to my approach to violence. I happen to have attended the meeting at which Ford along with about 15 others, headed by Pete Higgins, the guy who formerly headed that local, was at, and where a worker got up and tried to approve the minutes of the previous meeting he was threatened and when the meeting adjourned there simply was no business of any kind transacted.
We were told at that time at that meeting that this would be the procedure in future meetings.
On the second meeting, the following week, and Gene had some calls that this same crowd was mobilizing, he called me for some help. I had already had the experience of a group of guys strong-arming their way or trying to strong-arm their way back into power in that local union and so I did the only thing I could do, was try to see to it that that meeting operated. I was the trustee of the local and that was my responsibility. I immediately called for membership support to de- fend the rights of that local union to function against the strong-arm tactics of those who would seek to regain power.
I called in, not just cabdrivers, I called in workers from a series of local unions to be there, members of a series of local unions to be at the meeting hall to see to it that peace was maintained and that the orderly functioning of that union was not interfered with.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was it that once again, Mr. Gibbons, for somebody who doesn't condone violence, you would send over indi- viduals who have these long criminal records, records involved in extensive violence ? Tony and Joe Cottero ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know about the once again? This is the first time.
Mr. Kennedy, Again arrested for stabbing, drugstore holdup, attempted murder, and you got a fellow here, the other man is a pimp, who put his wife in a bawdy house. These are the people you sent over there to keep order.
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, again I remind you of my previous testimony here, that these men were members of the union, employed by the employers, and they were active in the union. When I called for volunteers, these people volunteered.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, you can't keep dismissing this. You were the one that sent them over "there.
Mr. Gibbons. Let us not dismiss anything. I am not trying to dismiss anything. I am prepared to stand by every single act I
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14599
have ever performed in my life. I authorized their going over there. I don't recall that I specifically sent out the invitation to anyone of them. But I will take responsibility as trustee for their having been there.
But I point out to you, No. 1, I knew nothing about any record that anyone of them had. To me they were just a bunch of active trade unionists in their union, and when they were asked to go to the defense of their union against the strong-arm tactics of the ex-officers, they volunteered, and that was good enough for me, and it was on that basis they were sent over there. They were not sent over there with instruction to slug anybody.
Mr. Kennedy. We have at least eight people that are listed here. Each one has a criminal record, that ranges from putting their wives in houses of prostitution, to stabbing, to attempted murder, to armed robbery, burglary, white slavery, carrying concealed weapons, every conceivable crime. You happened just by chance to send them over to guard over the union meeting.
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, this you have knowledge of in 1958. I did not have knowledge of this at the time that any of those in- stances took place. If you have a quarrel with people in the cab union with criminal records, you should take it up with employers.
Mr. Kennedy. I am taking it up now. I say they got in there first. You used them, Mr. Gibbons.
Mr. Gibbons. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You used them on the streets to keep the cabs off the street. They were involved in violence. You used them when you wanted somebody to keep people out of union headquarters.
Mr. Gibbons. Not as men with criminal records. I used them as members in good standing in my union who were active in a strike and volunteering to preserve order.
The Chairman. How many men did you send ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't recall the exact number, Senator. I suggest there must have been 15 to 30 people over there. It was not to take care of any Mr. Ford.
Mr. Kennedy., We have a list of 10 and every one of them has a criminal record — an extensive criminal record.
Mr. Gibbons. Is this the complete record of the people there?
Mr. Kennedy. These are the men we know of.
Mr. Gibbons. There were more there.
Mr. Kennedy. You give us the names of those and we will check their criminal records.
The Chairman. Let us say there were 30. At least one third were people of that character.
Mr. Gd3bons. I am not denying that these people have criminal records. I am quite conscious of it. I was not aware of it at the time they were sent over. I sent them not as men with criminal records. I sent them as active workers in a strike situation.
The Chairman. Here is the implication. When you anticipate violence, or when you want violence committed, you use this character of people to do it. You cannot escape that.
Mr. Gibbons. I don't accept the responsibility, Senator.
The Chairman. You are the one that directed them to go and you take no responsibility for the kind of characters they are? That is what you say.
14600 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. I take responsibility for sending them over as trade unionists. I had no access to their records. I had no means to get their police records. I had no occasion to even suspect them of having police records.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me ask you about another situation, then. I think all of these incidents add up in my estimation to a pattern. Let me ask you about your relationship with Mr. Joe Costello.
Mr. Gibbons. Eight,
Mr. Kennedy. Of the Ace Cab Co. We had some testimony here that in 1956, at the time of the wildcat strike, you made certain arrangements with the Ace Cab Co. to get people to patrol the streets. Is that correct ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, it is not correct,
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any arrangement with the Ace Cab Co. at all?
Mr. Gibbons. Now let me tell you about the arrangements with the Ace Cab Co. at the time of the strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Joe Costello ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes. He is under contract with our union. He is an employer.
Mr.* Kennedy. How long have you known Joe Costello?
Mr. Gibbons. Only since the time I had occasion to take over the taxicab local as trustee, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss with him the situation involving the wildcat strike in 1956?
Mr. Gibbons. Let me tell you about the wildcat strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you just answer the question?
Mr. Gibbons. Did I discuss with him the wildcat strike?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. I certainly did because he was one of the employers who was on strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he make arrangements for you to have any assistance of his drivers?
Mr. Gibbons. He never made any arrangements for me to have as- sistance and he certainly never made any arrangements with me to give me any assistance.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make any payments subsequent to the Ace Cab Co.?
Mr. Gibbons. I would like to develop why.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. Gibbons. I was in New York City when that strike took place. The background is that the employers could not not operate their cabs because they could not hire white drivers. They turned to the union and asked if the union had any objection to their employment of Negro drivers. My only question raised at that time was that we had absolutely no objection, but I would like to see all of the cab companies do' it because if one did it, there would be discrimination against that cab company, through rumors and appeals to prejudice. We had a meeting with the four cab company heads including from the Mayor's Commission on Human Relations, a representative of the Urban League, NAACP, and a professor from Washington Uni- versity. We discussed the thing and we set a date for it, I was in New
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14601
York the night that the thing was to take place, the integration was to take place, and the next day I got telephone calls that the entire industry was shut down. I proceeded to come back to the city of St. Louis and tried to effect a resumption of service and get our workers back to work. I sent out a letter to every one of our workers instruct- ing them to go back to work because we had a responsibility to perform under a collective bargaining agreement we had with those four com- panies. This was not successful, and then I went on the basis of putting on some crews to protect the people. It did not work.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get the crews from ?
Mr. Gibbons. From my rank-and-file membership. Let me go to the heart of your question now. In the first few days in which the strike took place, the union was incapable of supplying men to operate the taxicabs. Mr. Costello saw fit to place a series of his drivers who were not driving or he took them off driving and put them in cars and they patrolled the streets to protect his drivers who were functioning. It was the only way to get them off the streets by putting them in the hospital. Three of our people were injured severely. When I got my crews operating — and incidentally from the minute my crews hit the street there was no violence of any kind, and less than 10 days later, that about the fourth day and about 6 days the industry was back to normal operation. When it was over, Joe Costello pointed out he had spent a lot of money — or during the strike — bringing about something which the union had total responsibility for, namely, the operation of his cabs. He explained what he did. He put men in cars in order to protect the drivers so that they could function without fear of being injured. He told me that. I said fine. If you put men on the streets, if you have expended money on a responsibility which is clearly our union's, and which we are subject to suit for, I says I will reimburse your company. This I did. I was not consulted when they were put on the street. I had no knowledge of who was in the cabs when they were put on the street. It was only after the thing was going that Joe Costello asked me to reimburse him for the money. I talked even to my attorneys, do they have a legal claim on our union for not performing under the contracts. ,
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you reimburse him ?
Mr. Gibbons. I think something like 25 or 23 hundred dollars, if I am not mistaken. You have the records.
Mr. Kennedy. We will put them in.
Mr. Gibbons. $2,900, I believe it was. My attorney tells me.
The Chairman. Come around, Mr. Eickmeyer.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS EICKMEYER
Mr. Kennedy. What do the records show the payments by the union were to the Ace Cab Co., Joe Costello's cab company ?
The Chairman. Let the record show this witness has been previously sworn.
Mr. Kennedy. For these individuals.
Mr. Eickmeyer. Ace Cab Co. billed Teamster Local 405 for taxicab service, $2,925. This was paid to Ace Cab Co. on the same date with a check from local 405.
The Chairman. The statement and the check may be made exhibit 106, A and B.
14602 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit 106 A and B, for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 14897-14898.)
Mr. Kennedy. How many individuals were there that were in- volved ; that received payments ?
Mr. Eickmeyer. Thirteen individuals.
Mr. Kennedy. How many of the 13 have criminal records?
Mr. Eickmeyer. We checked and found all 13 had criminal records.
Mr. Kennedy. All the 13 who received money in connection with this matter have criminal records?
Mr. Eickmeyer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, once again these criminal records are extensive criminal records. These are not those who just got arrested for going through a stop sign.
The Chairman. Do you have a list of them and their records?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, we do.
The Chairman. Perhaps someone can verify it.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Langenbacher can do it.
The Chairman. You have been previously sworn ?
Mr. Langenbacher. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have the record of the 13 men referred to ?
Mr. Langenbacher. Yes, we have a record of the hoodlum squad. They do not have all the convictions, but the hoodlum squad saw fit to keep records on all of them. I have those records before me now.
The Chairman. That is the hoodlum squad of St. Louis ?
Mr. Langenbacher. Of the St. Louis police ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Two of them, the two we had here before the com- mittee, were under indictment for murder at the time they were per- forming this service ?
Mr. Langenbacher. That is correct. Lou Shoulders, Jr., and one of the Harvill brothers were under indictment for murder of one Bobby Carr in East St. Louis, and, I am informed by the police, it was a murder over jurisdiction in prostitution matters.
(At this point, the following members were present: Senators McClellan and Ives.)
The Chairman. Do you have the list there of the 13 ?
Mr. Langenbacher. Yes, sir ; I do.
The Chairman. Have you checked it ? Did you say you took that from the police records in St. Louis ?
Mr. Langenbacher. Yes, sir. In fact, these are copies of the police records themselves, furnished by the police of St. Louis in response to my request.
The Chairman. That record may be made exhibit No. 107.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 107" for ref- erence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Previant. Mr. Chairman, might we have the record clear at this point that these were persons who were hired by the cab company and not hired by the union in any capacity?
The Chairman. Hired by the cab company for which the cab com- panv was reimbused by the union.
Mr. Previant. Not hired by the union or with the knowledge of the union.
The Chairman. But reimbursed.
Mr. Gibbons. Subsequently reimbursed, but in no sense a responsi- bility of mine in connection with putting them on the streets.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14603
Mr. Kennedy. Certainly the responsibility comes back to you when you pay for them.
Mr. Gibbons. No ; it does not.
Mr. Kennedy. Joe Costello has the contacts.
Mr. Gd3bons. No ; I did not go to Mr. Costello at any point asking for any assistance in that strike situation, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you pay him this money ?
Mr. Gibbons. I paid him because he legitimately showed what he had expended on the problem of doing the things which the union was responsible for, namely the performing.
Mr. Kennedy. You condoned the hiring of these gangsters and hoodlums to patrol the streets of St. Louis ?
Mr. Gibbons. I did not condone any such things, Mr. Kennedy. If I had been putting them on the streets, I would have been very much more careful who it was.
The Chairman. Did you just use the same care in sending them down to the union hall ?
Mr. Gibbons. I did not send any Harvills down to the union hall. I don't believe they are even members, the Harvill boys.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Lou Shoulders ?
Mr. Gibbons. A union man, again hired by an employer.
Mr. Kennedy. You used Lou Shoulders, have you not ?
Mr. Gibbons. In what respect ?
Mr. Kennedy. Have you used Lou Shoulders at all?
Mr. Gibbons. Again, as an active member of the union, when we called for volunteers, he may have shown up on one of the picket lines.
Mr. Kennedy. In the Granite City strike ?
Mr. Gibbons. He could have been over on the Granite City picket line.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you send a man like Lou Shoulders?
Mr. Gibbons. I did not send him.
Mr. Kennedy. Who sent him ?
Mr. Gibbons. It is a question of any time we have an opportunity or need to mobilize our membership, the best I do is O. K. it, and as I did in the Granite City situation, which was the occasion for a strike taking place, I asked that some of our people be sent over there to assist. What probably happened out of that was the staff called some shop stewards.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever sent anybody that has not an exten- sive criminal record?
Mr. Gibbons. Just a minute. Here, talking about people, here is a whole slew of people that were in my cars. Look at the list. There are four pages of them. You can check them. I question whether you will find any of them with a police record. They are all rank and filers, right off the trucks, garages, and warehouses.
They were on my 50 automobiles that we had on the street. They were people, again, that were picked through the process of the staff calling shop stewards from the various unions and officers, asking for volunteers to help.
Mr. Kennedy. Let's have the background of some of these people that were placed on during the wildcat strike of 1956.
Mr. Gibbons. By Mr. Costello, do you mean?
Mr. Kennedy. Paid by the union.
14604 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. Yes.
Mr. Langenbacher. This is a summary of the men, according to the hoodlum squad records of the city police of St. Louis.
Joseph John Cannella : Strike breaker ; muscle man ; took active part in assault on cab driver; associate of Barney Baker and Lou Shoulders, Jr.; arrested for selling firearms, nonsupport, disposing of mortgaged property; suspicion of seduction and peace disturb- ance; fined $50 for bootlegging and sentenced to 18 months for interstate transportation of firearms.
Max Feldman : Arrested for alcohol tax violation ; suspicion of affray on two occasions; as a fugitive for investigation; suspicion of robbery on three occasions ; disturbing the peace on two occasions ; investigation on four occasions.
Sam Salvator Guccione: Hired bodyguard for Joseph Costello; associate of John Vitale, Isadore Londe, Anthony Lapipero, Anthony Giardano, Ralph Calico, and Louis Shoulders, Jr.; arrested for assault with deadly weapon, assault with intent to kill, suspicion of murder, burglary, receiving stolen property, suspicion of homicide.
George "Stormy" Harvill: Associate of hoodlums; acquitted of murder in 1952; indicted with Lou Shoulders, Jr., for murder of Bobby Carr in 1955; numerous other arrests for investigation.
Wilbourne "Babe" Harvill: Known associate of many hoodlums; arrested for carrying weapons; larceny of auto; fugitive; peace disturbance; carrying concealed weapon; suspicion of larceny on two occasions ; suspicion of murder on two occasions.
Charles Jefferson Hollis: Known associate of hoodlums; arrested for petty larceny, forgery, passing stolen checks, suspicion of bur- glary, suspected prostitution.
Robert James; Arrested for peace disturbance and for receiving stolen property.
William Laird: Arrested for destruction of property, suspected homicide, suspected robbery and suspected larceny.
Rolland Lehman: Arrested for destruction of city property.
William Manley : Arrested for suspicion of stealing, suspicion of gambling, worthless check, two cases of suspected burglary, three cases of suspected prostitution and suspected gambling.
William Harold Sanders : Associate of most known local hoodlums : reputation as a strikebreaker and slugger; numerous arrests of as- sault to do great bodily harm ; arrested with Teamster muscle man "Barney" Baker ; arrested for carrying concealed weapons ; acquitted of murder.
Louis Shoulders, Jr. : Reputation as burglar and muscle man : asso- ciate of hoodlums ; under indictment with "Stormy" Harvill for mur- der; fined $100 and placed on probation for burglary; arrested for peace disturbance, carrying concealed weapon, fugitive; arrested for common assault, suspicion of disposing of stolen property.
Joe Troup: Arrested as fugitive; on 8 occasions for suspicion of robbery and on 3 occasions for destruction of property.
The Chairman. This witness may be excused for the present,
Mr. Fitzgerald, we are going to recess until 10 : 30 in the morning.
Mr. Previaxt. Is this witness to return tomorrow morning?
The Chairman. Yes, at 10 : 30 in the morning.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14605
Mr. Fitzgerald, did you bring your records?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I have my 1957 records. Tomorrow I will have them over here when I get them back to the building. Then I will have a report on these different files that you want. I will have it in here by tomorrow morning.
The Chairman. All right, in the morning at 10 : 30.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 : 30 in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:50 p. m. the hearing was recessed to reconvene at 10:30 a. m. Wednesday, September 3, 1958, with the following members present: Senators McClellan and Ives.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 1958
United States Senate, Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. C.
The select committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to Senate Reso- lution 221, agreed to January 29, 1958, in the caucus room, Senate Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select committee) presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sen- ator Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York. Also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; Jerome S. Adlerman, assistant chief counsel ; Paul Tierney, assistant counsel ; John J. McGovern, assistant counsel; Carmine S. Bellino, accountant; Pierre E. Salinger, investi- gator; Leo C. Nulty, investigator; James P. Kelly, investigator; Walter J. Sheridan, investigator ; James Mundie, investigator, Treas- ury Department; John Flanagan, investigator, GAO; Alfred Vita- relli, investigator, GAO; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the committee present at the convening of the ses- sion were : Senators McClellan and Ives.)
The Chairman. May I suggest to the photographers that the wit- ness requested that no flashes be made while he is testifying. Gentle- men, you will observe the orders of the Chair.
Mr. Kennedy, proceed.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD J. GIBBONS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, DAVID PEEVIANT AND STANLEY ROSENBLUM— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, I was interested yesterday in your statement as to your lack of knowledge about who was responsible for these acts of violence, and your further statement that you were against violence yourself and deplored it when it was used by others or that it was used in connection with a strike. I would like you to look at some of the testimony, in volume 12, page 2298.
Mr. Gibbons. What page is that ?
Mr. Kennedy. Page 2298.
Mr. Gibbons. I am sorry, I don't have that.
Mr. Kennedy. August 26, 1958.
Mr. Gibbons. I am sorry, I don't have that.
14607
14608 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I will read it to you. The question on the bottom of page 2298.
Question. Did you know a cabdriver by tbe name of Leon Smitb?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Question. He was a Yellow Cab driver?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Question. Are you aware of the fact that his cab was smashed?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Question. That was while he was carrying the passenger's bags into the house?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Question. The cab was smashed and the windshield was broken; is that right?
Mr. Mitchell. That is right, sir.
Question. Did you ever know who was responsible for that?
Mr. Mitchell. Bommarito and Joe Ferrara.
Question. How did you know that?
Mr. Mitchell. Through them telling us after a patrol.
Question. How about Alvin Mercer, who was also a Yellow Cab driver? Did you hear about him?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir ; more or less, hearsay.
Question. What happened to him?
Mr. Mitchell. His cab was wrecked and he was beat up.
Question. Did you hear who was responsible for that?
Mr. Mitchell. The business agent at that time and another one or two.
Question. Do you remember who that was?
Mr. Mitchell. Ben Saltzman I believe was the business agent at that time. This was more or less discussed after a patrol.
Question. What about Paul Herzwiurm, who was a Yellow Cab driver, was he beaten?
Mr. Mitchell. Yes, sir.
Question. Who were you told was responsible for that?
Mr. Mitchell. Mr. Saltzman was responsible for that. He was talking about it, expecting to be arrested.
Now, when there acts of violence took place, evidently according to Mr. Mitchell's testimony, it was discussed as to who was responsible for them. Did you try to determine yourself who was responsible, and take action against those individuals?
Mr. Gibbons. It is kind of regrettable, Mr. Kennedy, that you seem to place so much faith in a person like Mitchell. If your staff had done the most elementary kind of investigation you would have found for instance that he lied in terms of the placing of Saffo in the meeting, and at the time Pete Saffo had just come through three major opera- tions.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you answer the question, please? Did you make a study to try to find out who was responsible for this violence ?
Mr. Gibbons. I had reports every morning from crews, and not I personally, but we, let me put it that way, had reports every morning from crews on the streets at night,
Mr. Kennedy. When these acts of violence took place, did you go to the members of this group that met at your headquarters, and ask them if they were responsible ?
Mr. Gibbons, I got the reports every morning or our people got the reports, those directly responsible for the strike and there was no publicity upon those and many of those acts, which are related there, as far as I am concerned right now, may never even have happened.
Mr. Kennedy. You have a lot of people that were beaten up, Mr. Gibbons, whether your recognize it or not, or whether you care about it or not.
Mr. Gibbons. I care. I am deeply concerned about it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14609
Mr. Kennedy. So therefore I am asking you. That is your state- ment. I am asking you what evidence you have. I am asking you whether you asked any of these individuals what they knew or whether they had any information as to who was responsible.
Mr. Gibbons. Every morning after the evening's work, the night's work, people were questioned in discussions at the union headquar- ters as they gave their reports. This is the degree to which we have investigated these particular acts of violence, but I will refer you again
The Chairman. Mr. Gibbons, the question is, did you yourself ask them ?
Mr. Gibbons. This is one of the particular strikes, Senator, that I was not directly involved in.
The Chairman. You can answer the question "Yes" or "No." Did you yourself ask them about it ?
Mr. Gibbons. The answer at this time that I can give is that I have no recollection of actually investigating personally any specific acts of violence in that particular strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, going back to Mr. Bommarito, I was partic- ularly interested as far as he was concerned. We had the testimony again, of Mr. Mitchell, regarding that event, and he testified. This is page 2303.
Mr. Mitchell. I pulled in front of the cab, and Farrera and the girl got out. They started to cross a lot. There was three carloads of us. There was three carloads of men around, with the exception of the drivers, around the car, and they were trying to turn it over. I tried to get my car out before they turned it over. In the meantime, we heard the police sirens. So when we heard the police sirens, they wasn't making very much success at turning the car over so Joseph Bommarito he said he hurt his back or something.
Question. Trying to turn the car over?
Mr. Mitchell. So after he said that, some of the boys grabbed the snow chains out of my car and beat out the windows and then a few of them jumped in my car.
Did you make an investigation of that at all, Mr. Gibbons?
Mr. Gibbons. In the answer to your last question, I pointed out to the Senator, to my knowledge at this time I did not make an inde- pendent investigation of any of the acts of violence which took place in that particular strike.
The Chairman. I have one question here, to clear this up: Did you at those meetings in the morning, or the patrols who had come in off the street when they had their meeting, did you personally appear there and interrogate them about the incidents of the night before ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe I did, Senator. I have no recollec- tion of actually sitting in on those sessions.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, on page 2304, Mr. Mitchell goes on and he says about coming back to the headquarters :
Mr. Mitchell. I was given instructions to keep my automobile away from there due to the fact that my car was seen at the scene of the crime.
Question : Who told you that?
Mr. Mitchell. Mr. Gibbons, for one, and most all of them around the office told me to keep away from there.
Did you tell him that?
Mr. Gibbons. Again, I have no independent recollection.
14610 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that you told him to keep his car away from the headquarters ?
Mr. Gibbons. I haven't any recollection of discussing that matter with Mr. Mitchell and having given him any instructions about keep- ing his car away.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that you told him to keep his car away from the headquarters, Mr. Gibbons ?
Mr. Gibbons. I have no independent recollection of having done so.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny it ?
Mr. Gibbons. Do I deny it? I don't have any independent recol- lection and I can't necessarily deny or affirm it.
Mr. Kennedy. That is, of course, the problem here, Mr. Gibbons. You can make general statements that, "I am against violence," and "I am against sin" and "I love my mother," but when it comes down to the particular event, you haven't any of the answers.
Mr. Gibbons. I have answers for everything, Mr. Kennedy, that I am in any position, reasonable position, to give answers to. No one is dodging any answers, and the thing that I would go back to again is the character of the witnesses that you are interrogating me on now. I would like an opportunity to discuss Mr. Mitchell.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to say I don't think that you are going to get a minister, or a priest, or a rabbi going out and turning over cars and beating people up. These are the people that testified before the committee that they, personally, went out and beat people up and wrecked automobiles. They told who was responsible and who gave them instructions, and you were one of them.
Mr. Gibbons. The question is not whether they are priests or min- isters, and the question is whether they are competent and whether they are credible.
The Chairman. Who was Mitchell? What was he doing at that time?
Mr. Gibbons. Mitchell was a cabdriver. I am sure Mr. Kennedy checked his police record.
The Chairman. A cabdriver?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right; proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. He was one of these individuals who was meeting at the union headquarters?
Mr. Gibbons. He was a person who, on the stand under oath, de- liberately lied.
The Chairman. Was he one of your patrol then ?
Mr. Gibbons. He was a member of the union active in that strike, and as such he did, as I understand it.
The Chairman. He was active out patrolling?
Mr. Gibbons. He did participate in the patrolling.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, we had the testimony on page 2303 about Mr. Bommarito hurting his back. Then, by Mr. Sparks, on page 2362 we had some testimony regarding a group that went out to wreck a cab where Mr. Bommarito hurt his back.
Question. Were you present at that? Mr. Sparks. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Didn't Bommarito take the fifth amendment on the question whether he had hurt his back turning over a car ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14611
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. Does he still work for you ; Bommarito ?
Mr. Gibbons. Bommarito is employed by 405, and as a trustee of that local I am responsible for it, and I expect that the answer to that could be interpreted as "Yes."
The Chairman. I don't know how otherwise to interpret it. If he is in your employ, or in the employ of the union, the union over which have control, you have the right to hire or discharge him, do you not ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, because his is not an elected position.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. On page 2368, the question was asked by the chair- man:
How did that fellow get his back hurt out there; Bommarito? Mr. Sparks. I guess he was trying to turn the cab over. The Chairman. Did you see him trying to turn it over? Mr. Sparks. I was there. I was helping him.
Now, Mr. Gibbons, are you taking any action against Mr. Bom- marito to remove him from his job ?
Mr. Gibbons. You already gave us the record on Mr. Sparks, who was at one time confined to an insane asylum, according to you. Do you think I am going to fire a responsible staff member on the evidence or on the basis of a man from an insane asylum ?
Mr. Kennedy. These individuals, obviously, the people that you got to commit these acts of violence, as I said, are not going to be the fore- most citizens of St. Louis. These are people who have been involved in violence. I read their police records, and there is no question about that. They come in here and they say that they did it.
There is no reason to lie and they are not being paid to say they did it. They come in and they confess that they took part in it. They tell who else was responsible for it.
Mr. Bommarito was one of those that was identified as being respon- sible for it. They said he hurt his back. We go to the police or to the records in the hospital, and he goes to the hospital immediately — he has wrecked his back. Could you tell us how he hurt his back ?
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, it is not a question whether they are priests or ministers, and the issue is not whether or not they were there and saw these things. The issue is whether or not these are credible witnesses whose testimony can be believed. You have destroyed every one of them by your own compilation of their police records.
The Chairman. And Mr. Bommarito can be believed ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir; Mr. Bommarito, I believe, could be believed.
The Chairman. Will you have him come here and testify?
Mr. Gibbons Mr. Chairman, the right of a member of my staff or a member of the union or any American citizen to take the fifth in the light of his own conscience is one which I would protect and not at- tempt to interfere with.
The Chairman. I understand.
Mr. Gibbons. This is a constitutional right of every American citizen.
The Chairman. The theory about the right to take the fifth has its proper place, but it also has its proper implication. If a man were working for you, personally, and embezzled your personal funds, and you asked him about it and he took the fifth, I don't think that you would keep him in your employ much longer.
14612 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR EIELD
Mr. Gibbons. If lie embezzled my funds and to my knowledge, I can assure you I wouldn't, but it would have nothing to do with his taking the fifth before a governmental body.
The Chairman. I understand. A governmental body today in some areas has lost the respect that it deserves, and instead it is treated with utter contempt.
Mr. Gibbons. Let me assure you, Senator, that I have the utmost and deepest respect for this body, and every other section of our American Government, and what your comments are do not apply in my par- ticular instance. I shall deal with Mr. Bommarito.
The Chairman. Proceed. It will be about the first instance that there has been anybody dealt with in the Teamsters Union.
Mr. Kennedy. The reason you are reluctant to deal with him is because you knew this was going on ?
Mr. Gibbons. I thought maybe you were going to tell me I was afraid to deal with him.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Gibbons. But I am not reluctant at all to deal with Mr. Bommarito.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell me again about the hospital bills. What ex- planation did he give to you about hurting his back ? If Mr. Sparks' testimony was wrong, and if Mr. Mitchell's testimony is wrong, and Mr. Bommarito takes the fifth amendment, what explanation did he give to you about the back ?
Mr. Gibbons. I believe I testified to that yesterday, Mr. Kennedy.
(At this point, the following members are present: Senators Mc- Clellan and Ives.)
Mr. Kennedy. I want to hear it again.
Mr. Gibbons. My testimony was to the effect that if I paid or if our union paid for the hospital bills, it had to be related — it was investi- gated at the time, it was inquired into at the time, and it must have been related to legitimate trade-union activity. And in doing so, we treated Bommarito no different than we treat any other striker or member of our union who was working on behalf of the organization when he got injured.
The Chairman. If the facts are that he was out there undertaking to wreck a car or turn it over, and you knew it at the time and paid his hospital bill, would you regard that as legitimate labor-union activity ?
Mr. Gibbons. No, I would not.
Mr. Kennedy. But you say that it had something to do with trade- union activity?
Mr. Gibbons. I assume as much, on the basis that we paid for it, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. That makes it even more interesting, Mr. Gibbons, because when he reported to the hospital, he said he received this injury from lifting a trunk.
Mr. Gibbons. Who did he report this to, Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. We have the hospital report. I will show it to you.
This patient stated that he tried to lift a heavy trunk and got sudden pain in the lower back and could not be expected to walk as usual.
He came to the hospital for
The Chairman. Has that already been made an exhibit ? Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14613
Mr. Gibbons. Do you believe the report that is given there, Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. This is what the patient said.
Mr. Gibbons. What am I to believe, the testimony you gave me of the witnesses or this one ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is what I am trying to find out. You said the union paid his bills, the union paid his bills because it was tied up to trade activity. This man comes in and says it was from lifting a trunk. This is what Bommarito says.
Mr. Gibbons. I did not testify directly to the fact that it was posi- tively tied in with trade-union activity, Mr. Kennedy. I stated to you that if this bill had been cleared and paid by our union, some one of our officials had evidently investigated it, was satisfied that it was related to the union work, and thus paid it.
Mr. Kennedy. We have the testimony that it was not ; that it was involved in trying to turn a car over. Mr. Bommarito takes the fifth amendment. Certainly when he went to the hospital he was not going to say "I was trying to wreck an automobile, turn a cab over."
He gave that excuse. Are you going to take action to try to get that money restored?
Mr. Gibbons. No. You characterize this yourself as an excuse. Why should I act on an excuse?
Mr. Kennedy. But this is Mr. Bommarito
Mr. Gibbons. I told you it had been inquired into, if one of our representatives or officers had agreed to pay the bill, and I was satisfied that it was related, if this had occurred, it was related to legitimate trade-union activity.
Mr. Kennedy. What did they report to you as the trade-union activity ?
Mr. Gibbons. They didn't report to me. I said that someone must have checked it, and I am satisfied that if one of my officers O. K.'d it
Mr. Kennedy. Who O. K.'d it, then?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't know at those dates who was the one who was O. K.'ing the strike expenditures. Probably it was Lou Berra. No, it wasn't Lou Berra. It was probably Phil Reichardt, or one of the other people who was active in that particular strike.
Maybe Lou Berra was active in that strike.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, Lou Berra was active in it. It could have been Lou Berra, it could have been Phil Reichardt, 1 of the 2. Or it may have been someone else, in fact.
Mr. Kennedy. Based on this, you will not take action against him?
Mr. Gibbons. Based on what?
Mr. Kennedy. Based on the testimony before the committee, based on the record at the hospital, where he evidently did not give the correct facts, because you said it must have been related to union activity or his bill would not have been paid.
Mr. Gibbons. He must have given the straight facts either, Mr. Kennedy, or your witnesses are not to be believed. Your witnesses are in direct conflict with this, their testimony under oath. If I am going to take this, I must make up my mind which to take.
21243— 59— pt. 39 5
14614 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. This is the patient's, Mr. Bommarito's, report to the hospital. He does not say anything about union activity.
Mr. Gibbons. Is this a true and accurate picture of what the actual situation was?
Mr. Kennedy. This is Mr. Bommarito. You say you paid the hospital bill, Mr. Gibbons. You paid the hospital bill because it was involved in trade-union activity.
According to Mr. Bommarito's statement it was not involved in trade-union activity. How can you explain paying the hospital bills, then?
Mr. Gibbons. I am going to check on the basis of the paying of the bills, now that you are making a big issue out of the payment of the bill.
Mr. Kennedy. Making a big issue?
Mr. Gibbons. It is a little bit confusing when you bring this to me and say that this proves it was not related to trade-union activity, that he actually got hurt lifting a trunk, and then you bring forth a bunch of witnesses who claim he got it by tipping a cab.
Mr. Kennedy. You know you can understand it better than that, Mr. Gibbons.
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, I cannot understand it the way you are presenting it here.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't ?
Mr. Gibbons. You have to determine whether you are going to submit 1 of the 2 in evidence and go on that basis.
The Chairman. On the basis of either, do you find any union activity connected with it?
Mr. Gibbons. No, neither of those two items I did not, Senator, but I shall certainly check on it and find out to the best of my ability to check on it, just exactly what was the basis for it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you notify these men that you would protect them ? According to Mr. Mitchell, on page 2308 :
The union said that they would protect any man who got in trouble.
Senator Curtis asked "Who for the union said that?"
Mr. Mitchell. Mr. Gibbons. All of those business agents said that.
Did you tell them that?
Mr. Gibbons. Anyone who gets in trouble in our union pursuant to work on behalf of our union, is going to be protected. His bills are going to be paid, and his family is not going to suffer if he has to wind up in prison. I would like to cite you an excellent case in that regard which proves the validity of my position.
Mr. Kennedy. I want to ask a question. When these individuals were arrested, for instance, Mr. Sparks, who was arrested for trying to turn this automobile over, for wrecking the automobile, did you inquire to find out if he had in fact participated in this violence, or did you just pay the union money to get him out?
Mr. Gibbons. When he was arrested, we immediately bonded him and everyone else out.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did you try to find out whether he had com- mitted these acts of violence?
Mr. Gibbons. I personally do not recall having done so, Mr. Ken- nedy. As I told you, I was not too closely identified with the actual operation of that particular strike. This was at a period when my
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14615
duties had increased tremendously, and I was quite a busy person in and out of the city of St. Louis at that particular time.
Mr. Kennedy. You made the statement, as I said, yesterday, that you were against violence, that you wanted to stamp the violence out. Now, when these people were arrested for violence, you paid their bonds immediately. I am trying to find out whether you ever inquired of them if they were responsible for these acts of violence, whether they were actually guilty of these acts of violence.
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, I have a perfectly good staff. I have every confidence in that staff. They know the policy of the union and I just assumed they inquired into it.
Mr. Kennedy. For instance, Mr. Sparks was arrested for wrecking this automobile, wrecking this Yellow cab. He said he ran away when he heard the police sirens, he ran through a field. The police arrested him and picked him up.
Mr. Gibbons. He was arrested, that is right? Was he ever found guilty ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was arrested, but he said he was guilty.
Mr. Gibbons. Was he ever found guilty in a court? I think this is adequate proof that this man was never convicted, unless we are going to cast reflection on the courts that we have in this country, and the police system that you praised so highly when Mr. Dougherty was in here.
Mr. Kennedy. This man came in and said he was arrested, and they were immediately bonded.
Mr. Gibbons. I can assure you furthermore, Mr. Kennedy
Mr. Kennedy. Wait a minute. Nobody to your knowledge ever inquired of them?
Mr. Gibbons. I didn't say that, now. Don't put words in my mouth with regards to my testimony.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they inquire, sir?
Mr. Gibbons. I said to you I feel certain that my staff did and I am sure that my attorneys did.
Mr. Kennedy. Who inquired?
Mr. Gibbons. Whoever happened to be the staff person in charge of tha particular strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Who inquired of Mr. Sparks as to whether he actually had committed this act?
Mr. Gibbons. The active staff members who were in charge of that strike, if they O. K.'d his defenses and everything else, certainly must have inquired into it.
And my attorneys, I am certain, also, who were leading his defense, inquired into it.
Mr. Kennedy. All right, now. Who ?
Mr. Gibbons. Well, there are court records back there, Mr. Kennedy. As I told you, I was not too closely identified with this strike. It is a little bit difficult to go back and pick out these individual names as you expect me to.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me ask you this, Mr. Gibbons. Did you tell these people when they were arrested to give their names, addresses, and no further information ?
Mr. Gibbons. Exactly.
Mr. Kennedy. You did?
14616 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you mean if the police came along and wanted to know if they were responsible for an act of violence, your instruc- tions were they were not to tell them ?
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Kennedy, I have some experiences with certain of the police in the city of St. Louis, and I have some very excellent material here on the nature of the police in St. Louis, by some very fine and reputable people in the city of St. Louis, and I don't trust the police of St. Louis, in a labor dispute. It is just too bad that you have such confidence in them. I don't have that kind of confidence in a police officer because they are not above framing individuals in the city of St. Louis.
Mr. Kennedy. We are glad to have your attitude on record, Mr. Gibbons. It shows the kind of official you are.
With the other union officials in the city of St. Louis, there have not been the same complaints about them, nor have they made the com- plaints like that to this committee about the police in St. Louis.
Mr. Gibbons. They have not had the background and experience with the police in St. Louis, Mr. Kennedy, that Mr. Gibbons has. I would like to cite you a few examples so that the whole story can be told.
Mr. Kennedy. The facts are that Mr. Sparks and Mr. Mitchell went out and wrecked this automobile, that they were arrested im- mediately afterward, that they were told by Mr. Gibbons, to give only their names and addresses, no further information, that they were bonded then by the union, that the union put up their bond and the union paid their legal bills. Didn't they ultimately appear before the grand jury?
Mr. Gibbons. You are a lawyer, aren't you, Mr. Kennedy?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Would you answer the question, Mr. Gibbons ? Would you answer the question ?
Mr. Gibbons. Repeat the question, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it correct that after these individuals were arrested, that the union then put up their bond and put up their legal fees, paid for their bond and for their legal fees?
Mr. Gibbons. I already testified to the fact we do that in every instance in which the men are out fighting on behalf of the organiza- tion that I happen to represent.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you or did you not then put up the bond and the legal fees for these individuals?
Mr. Gibbons. Don't expect me to say yes or no in this instance. I was not there. I am not certain. I cant testify to a certainty on that, Mr. Kennedy. You know the record. But as a general policy, this is the policy of our organization.
Mr. Kennedy. And also the
Mr. Gibbons. It seems to me to be very much in keeping with the best elements of American justice in which a lawyer is available to a prisoner as soon as he is taken into a police station.
Mr. Kennedy. Also, Mr. Gibbons, the individuals were instructed to give only their names, addresses, and no further information ; is that correct ?
Mr. Gibbons. Until such time as they had an opportunity to talk to their lawyers.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14617
Mr. Kennedy. Then, when they appeared before the grand jury, were they not also instructed at that time that they should take the fifth amendment?
Mr. Gibbons. No, Mr. Kennedy ; no one instructs anyone to take the fifth amendment.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it suggested to them at that time?
Mr. Gibbons. No ; it was not even suggested to them, to my knowl- edge. Certainly to my knowledge not by me or anyone else in my employ.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not instruct them?
Mr. Gibbons. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You would know. I am asking if you told any of these people that they better take the fifth amendment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. The question is did you, yourself, tell them, or ad- vise them, or suggest to them that they take the fifth amendment ; you, personnally ?
Mr. Gibbons. Senator, I have no recollection of ever telling anyone to take the fifth. As I understand the fifth, there is only one basis on which you can take the fifth, not on instructions from anyone, not on anyone's suggestion, but strictly on the basis of fear in your own mind of possible incrimination.
The Chairman. That would probably be the correct legal inter- pretation. But as a matter of practice, it can be done the other way, too.
Mr. Gibbons. But in my instance, this is the way I try to operate in connection with the fifth amendment, Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever suggest to any of these people that they take the fifth?
Mr. Gibbons. Never to my knowledge did I suggest by word or deed that they take the fifth.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny ?
The Chairman. Just a moment. You say never to your knowledge.
Mr. Gibbons. "To the best of my remembrance," I better phrase it.
The Chairman. Let's pursue that a moment. You say it is against your policy ; you wouldn't ordinarily do a thing like that.
I think if you did it, it would be such an exception to your general policy, you would remember it.
Mr. Gibbons. I would agree with you that I should remember it if I made that, because it would be a very unique exception to my basic approach to it.
The Chairman. All right, now. Did you or didn't you ?
Mr. Gibbons. As I stated before, Senator, to the best of my re- membrance at this moment, I have no recollection of ever having advised or instructed anyone to take the fifth.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the best answer you can give on that one, too?
Mr. Gibbons. It is the correct answer, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember whether you did it; is that right?
Mr. Gibbons. No, and I don't propose to testify unless my memory is clear on everything that I testify on.
14618 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. That is fine, Mr. Gibbons.
Mr. Gibbons. I am certainly not interested in giving the committee wrong information.
The Chairman. The Chair hands you a photostatic copy of a document containing several pages, and it concludes "Respectfully submitted, Rosenblum, Goldenhersh & Merle L. Silverstein."
Who are they ? Do you know them ?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, who are they ?
Mr. Gibbons. They are a firm of attorneys in the city of St. Louis, a member which today is representing me, and which for sometime past has been retained and has done work for our union in St. Louis.
The Chairman. I present to you this document and ask if you can identify it please, sir.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. Mr. Chairman, this can be identified as a document out of the offices of the legal firm listed, Rosenblum, Goldenhersh
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit 108.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 108" for reference, and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Previant. Might I inquire of the chairman with respect to the pertinency of this exhibit ?
The Chairman. What is the title of it ?
Mr. Previant. "Memorandum — Grand Jury Testimony."
The Chairman, It may have some pertinency. What does it purport to do ?
Mr. Previant. I can tell you what the final bit of advice is. It says "Do not answer any question untruthfully. The penalty for perjury is a severe one. If you camiot answer the question truth- fully without incriminating yourself, then you should consider in- voking your constitutional privilege against self-incrimination," which is sound advice, as the Chairman knows.
Mr. Gibbons. Secondly, it is the advice of our attorneys, and I don't see how it has any pertinency in terms of my testimony.
The Chairman. We will determine the pertinency of it.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened to this memorandum? Who re- quested it be prepared?
Mr. Gibbons. I just told our attorneys I am not sure I ever saw it before. I thought it was another document, gotten out on a similar subject or on the same subject.
Mr. Kennedy. This is on testifying before a grand jury and how to plead the fifth amendment, Mr. Gibbons ?
Mr. Gibbons. What is that?
Mr. Kennedy. This is about testifying before the grand jury and how to plead the fifth amendment?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe it has anything on how to plead the fifth amendment. I did not read it. I have no recollection of ever having read it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you request that it be prepared ? (The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. GmBONS. I don't believe I did, Mr. Kennedy. I believe it would probably be simply a service rendered by the firm then in a
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 14619
period in which the grand jury had been convened in the city of St. Louis.
Mr. Kennedy. Starting on page 2, in the middle of page 2, to the end of the memorandum, it is all on how to plead and when you can plead the fifth amendment.
Mr. Gd3bons. You are not opposed to citizens of this country knowing their legal rights, are you, Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, Mr. Gibbons ; I am not. What did you do with this memorandum after you got it?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe I ever received it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it distributed ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe I ever received it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it ever distributed amongst the union officials in St. Louis?
Mr. Gibbons. To the best of my knowledge, it was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you find out what happened to it, then ?
Mr. Gibbons. I will inquire into it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. In a very fast check on the subject, he tells me it was prepared for me — my attorney does — and that it was distributed to Teamster lawyers.
Mr. Kennedy. It wasn't distributed generally amongst Teamster officials?
Mr. Gibbons. Again, I have to say to you that I have no knowledge of it having been distributed. At least, I can recollect no knowledge of it ever having been distributed to anyone, including even the lawyers.
Mr. Kennedy. But it was felt that such a memorandum should be prepared during this period of time
Mr. Gibbons. This is a decision for lawyers to make.
Mr. Kennedy. When the police were making investigations of your activities ?
Is that correct?
Mr. Gibbons. I would not say it was correct. I certainly could not testify to the correctness of that statement.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, why would the group of lawyers for the Teamsters prepare a 16-page memorandum on pleading the fifth amendment?
Mr. Gibbons. Our Teamster lawyers, some 100 of them, have an as- sociation. They discuss questions like this, because they face this problem in representing their clients.
Mr. Kennedy. You said they prepared it for you.
Mr. Gibbons. He tells me that it was prepared for me. Maybe it was prepared at my request for them. Somebody has to authorize it. The Teamsters Lawyers' Association does not have any money to spend, so maybe they asked me to supply them with it. As a result, maybe I went and ordered it done. The Teamsters Lawyers' Associa- tion has no money. If they have, they don't spend it. I know that. But in any event
Mr. Kennedy. We understand from the records that they get paid pretty well.
Mr. Gibbons. Some of those who aren't Teamster lawyers get paid pretty good, too.
14620 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question there ?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. I would like to ask the witness if this is called the Teamsters Lawyers' Association, is that the title of it ?
Mr. Gibbons. That is correct, I believe.
Senator Ives. Are these attorneys members of the Teamsters ?
Mr. Gibbons. Not members of the union, no. I don't believe any of them hold cards in the Teamsters Union.
Senator Ives. Some of them may ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't believe a single one, to my knowledge, certainly.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. Unless some local awarded one of them an honorary card. But I don't believe any of them would be eligible to join a union.
Senator Ives. I was curious.
Mr. Kennedy. When was this memorandum prepared ?
Mr. Gibbons. I have not any idea. I had in mind another memo- randum that I was sure had been prepared, and which was such a legal document that a layman would not even be able to understand it. It was nothing but a research job, citing all the cases in the field.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you inquire and find out ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Gibbons. My attorney tells me it was probably prepared in early 1954 at the time of the convening of the grand jury in St. Louis.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Ferrara, who did some work for you?
Mr. Gibbons. Yes ; I know Mr. Ferrara.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known Mr. Ferrara ?
Mr. Gibbons. I probably met him at the time of the cab strike. He was a cabdriver, to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you use him for any purposes ?
Mr. Gibbons. I don't use anyone, Mr. Kennedy. If he is a member of the union, if he is active in the strike, there is opportunity for him to function.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of things did you use him for?
Mr. Gibbons. Looking back now, it would be difficult for me to de- termine. But judging from the testimony that was here, if the testi- mony is correct, he likewise was part of the